Philosophy Now Forum

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:46 pm perhaps I should have been a bit clearer....
the book in question was about 10 or more years ago...
I wound up putting the book on sale on one of those
internet sites... sold exactly 13 copies.. and of those
13 copies, my family bought 11 of them... just an advantage
of having a large family... the book, as far as I know, is still
listed online... and I haven't even thought about this book
until recently.. little less check on the book status... the
important thing to realize is the pathway of books being sold...
that ART, my book was fiction, isn't as important as the
ability to sell that book... that is why we get shitty books
from well-known people, they have a name which can be
used to sell that book.. it is not about the quality of the book,
but the ability of that book to make money was my point...

and because I may not have made that very clear, that is my fault...

Kropotkin

So, since you are doing things here 'for money' also, why are you complaining about others wanting to do things 'for money' as well?

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:20 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:57 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:46 pm perhaps I should have been a bit clearer....
the book in question was about 10 or more years ago...
I wound up putting the book on sale on one of those
internet sites... sold exactly 13 copies..

So you were trying/hoping to make money from your book?

K: not at all.. which is why I finally put it online... in fact, the book
wound up costing me several hundred dollars.. and I was ok with that...

Kropotkin

So, supposedly, 'not at all' were you trying/hoping to 'make money' from your book, although you put your book 'on sale'.

If you were not trying/hoping to 'make money' by putting your book 'on sale', what were you trying/hoping to get, exactly?

What else were you 'selling' your book for, exactly, if not 'for money'?

Remember, you even 'sold' your book to your family or friends, instead of just 'giving' it to them.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 4:36 pm in thinking about utilitarian values, that seem to dominate our
lives today.. if it isn't useful, it has no value,

Which appears to be, exactly, how you think of and treat 'your book'. That is; if you cannot 'sell' it, then it, literally, has 'no value'.

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 4:36 pm and that
attitude seems to be what has destroyed the ARTS and literature...
Literature has value because it brings to us, in unmistakable
terms, that shows us what is possible in literature...

for example, Anna Kerenina by Tolstoy... it shows us one possibility
if we were to do as Anna did, which is to cheat on her husband...
and the consequences of that cheating... she kills herself...
which is, of course, just one possibly outcome of infidelity....
but therein lies the value of Anna... it brings out what is
possible in our actions, good or bad...without us suffering
those possibilities... and therein lies the value of literature
and plays... it brings us to what is possible in our actions...
let us take another ''classic'' .. Crime and Punishment..
that classic of Dostoevsky... if I were to act like Raskolnikov...
and murder someone, just to murder someone.. because I felt like
a ''superior''' person... but that is the point of ''Crime''
that no matter how ''superior'' we feel, we can be brought down
by our unconscious self.. that we are... condemned... to
to our feelings and emotions over which we have no control over...
and the interesting part is that Dostoevsky never thought about
a psychopath who has no remorse over killing...

Which is basically the plot of an ''American Psycho'' I see these
two ''American Psycho'' and ''Crime and Punishment'' as companion
pieces...people killing without remorse or care, does seem
to be a ''modern'' problem... and we have to wonder why?
and through ART and literature, we can see the possibilities
of why some can murder without a care, and some cannot....
but this idea of one having a conscious or not, is
something that is outside of utilitarian values...
and hence not explored in that way.....

Kropotkin

In thinking about utilitarian and its opposite, Artistic...

I spend a lot of time writing here.... but it is utilitarian writing...
the prose I use is not beautiful or even close to being Artistic...
I see a problem or a question, and I attempt to engage with
that...without any attempt to make it pretty....

and we can see this in the utilitarian writing vs Artistic writing...
Is the point of say ART, to be Artistic or is the point of
ART to engage with a social or political problem/answer
and solve them through the writing.....

I attempt to solve a problem through utilitarian means..
the problem is X, Y, and Z... and possible solutions are...
A, B, and C.... but for generations of writers, the solution
was found in ART... and this attempt to solve the world's problems
in Artistic works, has been lost for a long time..

if I were to see a political problem, I would approach it via utilitarian means,
prose that is straightforward with no attempt to make it pretty or Artistic...

would I try to solve the existential danger of IQ45 through a poem or
a work of ART? No, that would be considered to be ''old fashion''....
I would address it through a non-fiction book designed to be listed
in social studies or current affairs...

the modern question becomes this, can we address political or social
questions through the use of ART? Or must we, must we use utilitarian
means to address this political or social question?

Part of the critique of Goethe, and other great fiction writers, was
that they didn't address in their ART, the social, political or
economic problems of the times... at least in America... but
America and part of its, many failures, lies in the fact that we
actively walk away from anything resembling ART.. either in
seeking out problems or in seeking out solutions....all our answers
are found in utilitarian means/fashions.....
and I ask, it is possible that we can't find our answers because
we are so gripped by utilitarian writing and responses... whereas
the answer might be, might be found in some sort of Artistic response....

the answer to our social, political and economic issues may be found
in taking the questions of ART seriously... thus we use our ARTISTIC
vision to approach political, social and economic answers...

this means, instead of seeking out our answer in actions and 5 year plans,
we slow down and question the, the question...is our only recourse
in our problems, in utilitarian responses or can we use ARTISTIC
responses? many of our problems can be answered if we just
slow down and smell the roses.... if we stop and watch the sunset,
if we approach life like we approach the viewing of ART...
with no concern about the time it takes or the length of our
journey to see ART... how do you approach going to a museum?
certainly not with a stopwatch in hand or a set period of time
that forces us to race through museums....going to see ART,
going to a museum, isn't a time event.. it isn't being scored,
it takes as long as it takes, no more, no less....
Now apply that to our current social, political and economic
problems that haunt us... the number killer in the world is
stress....and how do we defeat stress?

we seek out joy, happiness, we slow down, we smell the roses...
we don't live by time limits... and we approach life exactly
like we would approach going to a museum.....
that is one possible solution to our social, political and economic
problems today.....

so, what other solutions can you think of that will solve the problems
of our world today? try to think outside of the box.... because today,
that box is trying to kill us.... how do we escape in one piece?

Kropotkin