Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:24 am**

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:02 am Temple spaces in Archaic Greece were deliberately set at the borders between 2 poleis. Each polis would use such ritual spaces to meet their neighbouring polis, at which localities sporting contests grew.
Aristotle called sport, "War without the killing".
Such liminal spaces were about keeping the peace and exchange of news and ideas. These would go on the great contests at Delphi, Olympus, Nemea, and Isthmia where we now mimic the Olympic games.

Yes, in some cases. Delphi, for example, was considered neutral ground. But it can't be the whole story. The Acropolis at Athens was right in the middle of Athens, and most cities had temples of their own.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:11 pm**

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:36 am
Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:27 am
Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:43 am Having been on a number of archaeological digs when I was at school, and a few since, I can attest that the best finds are always found at the edge of things. Walls of buildings, property or field boundaries, even borders of ancient kingdoms, as indicated by ridgeways, for example. Some of the reasons for this may be purely practical, of course. In the case of rooms, rubbish accumulates at the edges when floors are swept. With fields, the edges might be more difficult to plough over each year, and small, awkward areas might be missed. Borders, it goes without saying, are very popular venues for warfare, so we may more easily find evidence of ancient battles at or near them.

But I think something more is going on here. Rudston, Yorkshire, is just a tiny village with a massive megalith standing stone in its churchyard, which gives the village its name. There has been continuity of worship on this spot for at least four thousand years, maybe more. But the churchyard also contains a Roman sarcophagus, in an extremely bad state of repair, is has to be said, and located in a really inconvenient spot, right at the boundary of the churchyard, as indicated by a low medieval wall. Why put it here? This is obviously not the only example, and in fact, it's a common practice.

What is it about boundaries, the liminal areas, that seem to draw us? Humans are territorial creatures, even more so than cats, are we seem to care a great deal about boundaries, borders and limits...
Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

And, if ANY one of 'you' cares a great deal about boundaries, borders, and/or limits, then this is just.
BECAUSE of past DISTORTED teachings and experiences, and the 'current' DISTORTED thinking.
Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:43 am There's a lot of folklore associated with thresholds, and crossing over from one place to another, both literally and metaphorically. People might be said to be edgy, or on the edge. During the Neolithic period sacred enclosures are bounded by what archaeologists, rather confusingly, call henges, that is, circular embankments, that may or may not have stone circles in them. Ancient Roman religion also had its sacred enclosures, though these were usually rectangular, rather than circular.

In so many ways we seem to care more about boundaries than the actual things they enclose.

I think it's something innate in us, a natural human instinct, given to us by evolution. All humans do it, in all cultures, at all times in history.

But what 'you think' is NOT necessarily even remotely true, let alone absolutely true, or do you BELIEVE otherwise?

As I was SAYING, 'caring about boundaries', is just a LEARNED way of thinking, and NOT a natural human instinct, NOR innate to humans AT ALL.

AND, CLAIMING that all humans do 'it' is just False, Wrong, and Incorrect.

Being able to learn, understand, and reason absolutely ANY and EVERY thing is what separates human beings from ALL of the OTHER animals. An actual natural instinct of the human being, and what is innate to 'them', just being CURIOUS. But which, very sadly, dissipates in most with duration as this is another Wrong behavior, TAUGHT and LEARNED Wrongly.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:31 pm**

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am
Age wrote:
Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?

The attraction to the list of ALL 'things', which have BECOME so-called 'territory', 'possessed', or 'owned' was NEVER perceived as such, individually, NOR collectively, and only BECAME 'territorial', along the way, AFTER DISTORTED and Wrong thinking was TAUGHT, LEARNED, and OBTAINED.

Unless, OF COURSE, ANY one of 'you' can name ANY 'thing' that IS natural or innate 'territory'. Which, if ANY one can, then GREAT. Let us SEE 'it/them', and let us LOOK INTO and DISCUSS 'it/them’, BEFORE ANY one just ASSUMES or BELIEVES some 'thing' is true here, and then RUNS OFF.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:35 pm**

Is the stomach of an animal "its own territory", Age?

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:39 pm**

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:37 am
Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:31 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am
That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?
That was Age, you were quoting there.
Yes, I know Age said it, but I don't know how it got attributed to you. It was probably Age's fault rather than yours.

If there is absolutely ANY 'thing' Wrong here, then it will ALWAYS be ALL My fault. But this is just because of who and what 'I' am EXACTLY.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm**

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:31 pm
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am
Age wrote:
Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?
The attraction to the list of ALL 'things', which have BECOME so-called 'territory', 'possessed', or 'owned' was NEVER perceived as such, individually, NOR collectively, and only BECAME 'territorial', along the way, AFTER DISTORTED and Wrong thinking was TAUGHT, LEARNED, and OBTAINED.

Unless, OF COURSE, ANY one of 'you' can name ANY 'thing' that IS natural or innate 'territory'. Which, if ANY one can, then GREAT. Let us SEE 'it/them', and let us LOOK INTO and DISCUSS 'it/them’, BEFORE ANY one just ASSUMES or BELIEVES some 'thing' is true here, and then RUNS OFF.

Well people do seem to be territorial, as is suggested by the number of gardens with fences, walls, or hedges round them. Therefore, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the impulse to separate one's own property from its surroundings with some sort of a border is intrinsic to human nature. I'm not saying that is the case, just that it seems to be the case, but if you are saying it isn't the case, I think you should provide some form of supporting evidence. Or if you don't want to bother with evidence, you could just leave it to be assumed that you are merely expressing an opinion, rather than stating a fact.

I think it is very important to have CLARITY on such matters.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:34 pm**

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:24 am
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:02 am Temple spaces in Archaic Greece were deliberately set at the borders between 2 poleis. Each polis would use such ritual spaces to meet their neighbouring polis, at which localities sporting contests grew.
Aristotle called sport, "War without the killing".
Such liminal spaces were about keeping the peace and exchange of news and ideas. These would go on the great contests at Delphi, Olympus, Nemea, and Isthmia where we now mimic the Olympic games.
Yes, in some cases. Delphi, for example, was considered neutral ground. But it can't be the whole story. The Acropolis at Athens was right in the middle of Athens, and most cities had temples of their own.

By the time of the Panathenaia sure, but even Athens had its own borderline temples.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:36 pm**

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:11 pm
Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:36 am
Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:27 am

Human beings ONLY BECOME so-called 'territorial' because of, and AFTER, learned behavior.

And, if ANY one of 'you' cares a great deal about boundaries, borders, and/or limits, then this is just.
BECAUSE of past DISTORTED teachings and experiences, and the 'current' DISTORTED thinking.

I think it's something innate in us, a natural human instinct, given to us by evolution. All humans do it, in all cultures, at all times in history.
But what 'you think' is NOT necessarily even remotely true, let alone absolutely true, or do you BELIEVE otherwise?

As I was SAYING, 'caring about boundaries', is just a LEARNED way of thinking, and NOT a natural human instinct, NOR innate to humans AT ALL.

AND, CLAIMING that all humans do 'it' is just False, Wrong, and Incorrect.

Being able to learn, understand, and reason absolutely ANY and EVERY thing is what separates human beings from ALL of the OTHER animals. An actual natural instinct of the human being, and what is innate to 'them', just being CURIOUS. But which, very sadly, dissipates in most with duration as this is another Wrong behavior, TAUGHT and LEARNED Wrongly.

Can you provide any links to relevant studies?

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:40 pm**

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:34 pm
Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:24 am
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:02 am Temple spaces in Archaic Greece were deliberately set at the borders between 2 poleis. Each polis would use such ritual spaces to meet their neighbouring polis, at which localities sporting contests grew.
Aristotle called sport, "War without the killing".
Such liminal spaces were about keeping the peace and exchange of news and ideas. These would go on the great contests at Delphi, Olympus, Nemea, and Isthmia where we now mimic the Olympic games.
Yes, in some cases. Delphi, for example, was considered neutral ground. But it can't be the whole story. The Acropolis at Athens was right in the middle of Athens, and most cities had temples of their own.
By the time of the Panathenaia sure, but even Athens had its own borderline temples.

It may well have done, but Athens, and its Acropolis, are very old, having existed during the Mycenaean period.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:33 pm**

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:35 pm Is the stomach of an animal "its own territory", Age?

The word 'it' here could be implying that there IS some 'thing', of which 'ownership' would be possible.

If 'this' is what 'you' are implying here "wizard22", then HOW COULD an 'animal' 'own' some 'thing', EXACTLY?

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:57 pm**

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm
Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:31 pm
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am
That's interesting; what is the evidence to justify that assertion?
The attraction to the list of ALL 'things', which have BECOME so-called 'territory', 'possessed', or 'owned' was NEVER perceived as such, individually, NOR collectively, and only BECAME 'territorial', along the way, AFTER DISTORTED and Wrong thinking was TAUGHT, LEARNED, and OBTAINED.

Unless, OF COURSE, ANY one of 'you' can name ANY 'thing' that IS natural or innate 'territory'. Which, if ANY one can, then GREAT. Let us SEE 'it/them', and let us LOOK INTO and DISCUSS 'it/them’, BEFORE ANY one just ASSUMES or BELIEVES some 'thing' is true here, and then RUNS OFF.
Well people do seem to be territorial, as is suggested by the number of gardens with fences, walls, or hedges round them.

I would NEVER refute that some 'people' do SEEM to be 'territorial'. Just like I would NEVER refute that the sun does SEEM to be revolving around the earth. BUT, I like to TEST, FIRST, EVERY 'hypothesis', or CLAIM, made.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm Therefore, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the impulse to separate one's own property from its surroundings with some sort of a border is intrinsic to human nature.

LOL

So, if 'you', older human beings ONLY, who have been separating the EARTH, itself, into fenced, walled, or hedged off AREAS, while CLAIMING, 'this is MY OWN property', AND who have been doing 'this behavior', for relatively a nothing amount period of time, ONLY, THEN somehow MAKES and MEANS that 'this LEARNED behavior' is, LAUGHABLY, 'intrinsic to human nature', then HOW and WHY is 'this behavior' 'intrinsic to human nature' AND what IS 'human nature', EXACTLY, anyway?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm I'm not saying that is the case, just that it seems to be the case,

GREAT.

Adult human beings eat with instruments or tools AS WELL. So, is 'this behavior' 'intrinsic to human nature' ALSO?

If no, then WHY NOT?

But if yes, then WHY?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm but if you are saying it isn't the case, I think you should provide some form of supporting evidence.

Just LOOK AT the ACTUAL 'proof', FROM human history, and to do so you just need to answer the QUESTIONS I ASK here, OPENLY, and Honestly.

WHEN 'you' came out of a human body was there ANY INKLING to BE 'territorial', of ANY 'thing'?

WHEN human beings evolved into being, some 30,000 years ago, 300,000 years ago, or 3 million years ago, or ANY other 'time period', were 'they' then dividing, or separating, and CLAIMING 'ownership', of ANY 'thing'? Or, in other words, were 'they' being 'territorial'?

Or, were 'they', just like the new born human being just living WITH Nature, and the Universe, Itself?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm Or if you don't want to bother with evidence,

LOOK, for EVERY 'thing' I SAY and CLAIM here, in this forum, I WILL USE 'proof', INSTEAD, and NOT just, REALLY USELESS, 'evidence'.

'Evidence' can be 'USED' to support just about ANY VIEW, ASSUMPTION or BELIEF. Whereas, 'proof' IS IRREFUTABLE, and thus WHY I CHOOSE to LOOK AT and USE 'proof' INSTEAD, and ONLY.

Unlike 'you', adult human beings, I do NOT have BELIEFS, and then go LOOKING FOR 'evidence', for THOSE BELIEFS. INSTEAD, I REMAIN OPEN, ALLOWING 'proof', or 'Facts', to SHOW themselves.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm you could just leave it to be assumed that you are merely expressing an opinion, rather than stating a fact.

As I continually SAY, you are ABSOLUTELY FREE to ASSUME absolutely ANY 'thing' you like. I, however, prefer to NOT ASSUME absolutely ANY 'thing' AT ALL.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm I think it is very important to have CLARITY on such matters.

So WHY THEN did you ASSUME some 'thing' was true here, BEFORE you SOUGHT OUT CLARITY, FIRST?

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:59 pm**

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:36 pm
Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:11 pm
Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:36 am

I think it's something innate in us, a natural human instinct, given to us by evolution. All humans do it, in all cultures, at all times in history.
But what 'you think' is NOT necessarily even remotely true, let alone absolutely true, or do you BELIEVE otherwise?

As I was SAYING, 'caring about boundaries', is just a LEARNED way of thinking, and NOT a natural human instinct, NOR innate to humans AT ALL.

AND, CLAIMING that all humans do 'it' is just False, Wrong, and Incorrect.

Being able to learn, understand, and reason absolutely ANY and EVERY thing is what separates human beings from ALL of the OTHER animals. An actual natural instinct of the human being, and what is innate to 'them', just being CURIOUS. But which, very sadly, dissipates in most with duration as this is another Wrong behavior, TAUGHT and LEARNED Wrongly.
Can you provide any links to relevant studies?

Has ANY one so-called 'studied', or even LOOKED INTO, 'this' BEFORE?

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:17 pm**

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:57 pm
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm
Age wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:31 pm

The attraction to the list of ALL 'things', which have BECOME so-called 'territory', 'possessed', or 'owned' was NEVER perceived as such, individually, NOR collectively, and only BECAME 'territorial', along the way, AFTER DISTORTED and Wrong thinking was TAUGHT, LEARNED, and OBTAINED.

Unless, OF COURSE, ANY one of 'you' can name ANY 'thing' that IS natural or innate 'territory'. Which, if ANY one can, then GREAT. Let us SEE 'it/them', and let us LOOK INTO and DISCUSS 'it/them’, BEFORE ANY one just ASSUMES or BELIEVES some 'thing' is true here, and then RUNS OFF.
Well people do seem to be territorial, as is suggested by the number of gardens with fences, walls, or hedges round them.
I would NEVER refute that some 'people' do SEEM to be 'territorial'. Just like I would NEVER refute that the sun does SEEM to be revolving around the earth. BUT, I like to TEST, FIRST, EVERY 'hypothesis', or CLAIM, made.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm Therefore, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the impulse to separate one's own property from its surroundings with some sort of a border is intrinsic to human nature.
LOL

So, if 'you', older human beings ONLY, who have been separating the EARTH, itself, into fenced, walled, or hedged off AREAS, while CLAIMING, 'this is MY OWN property', AND who have been doing 'this behavior', for relatively a nothing amount period of time, ONLY, THEN somehow MAKES and MEANS that 'this LEARNED behavior' is, LAUGHABLY, 'intrinsic to human nature', then HOW and WHY is 'this behavior' 'intrinsic to human nature' AND what IS 'human nature', EXACTLY, anyway?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm I'm not saying that is the case, just that it seems to be the case,
GREAT.

Adult human beings eat with instruments or tools AS WELL. So, is 'this behavior' 'intrinsic to human nature' ALSO?

If no, then WHY NOT?

But if yes, then WHY?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm but if you are saying it isn't the case, I think you should provide some form of supporting evidence.
Just LOOK AT the ACTUAL 'proof', FROM human history, and to do so you just need to answer the QUESTIONS I ASK here, OPENLY, and Honestly.

WHEN 'you' came out of a human body was there ANY INKLING to BE 'territorial', of ANY 'thing'?

WHEN human beings evolved into being, some 30,000 years ago, 300,000 years ago, or 3 million years ago, or ANY other 'time period', were 'they' then dividing, or separating, and CLAIMING 'ownership', of ANY 'thing'? Or, in other words, were 'they' being 'territorial'?

Or, were 'they', just like the new born human being just living WITH Nature, and the Universe, Itself?

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm Or if you don't want to bother with evidence,
LOOK, for EVERY 'thing' I SAY and CLAIM here, in this forum, I WILL USE 'proof', INSTEAD, and NOT just, REALLY USELESS, 'evidence'.

'Evidence' can be 'USED' to support just about ANY VIEW, ASSUMPTION or BELIEF. Whereas, 'proof' IS IRREFUTABLE, and thus WHY I CHOOSE to LOOK AT and USE 'proof' INSTEAD, and ONLY.

Unlike 'you', adult human beings, I do NOT have BELIEFS, and then go LOOKING FOR 'evidence', for THOSE BELIEFS. INSTEAD, I REMAIN OPEN, ALLOWING 'proof', or 'Facts', to SHOW themselves.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm you could just leave it to be assumed that you are merely expressing an opinion, rather than stating a fact.
As I continually SAY, you are ABSOLUTELY FREE to ASSUME absolutely ANY 'thing' you like. I, however, prefer to NOT ASSUME absolutely ANY 'thing' AT ALL.
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:57 pm I think it is very important to have CLARITY on such matters.
So WHY THEN did you ASSUME some 'thing' was true here, BEFORE you SOUGHT OUT CLARITY, FIRST?

I don't have the time to respond to this point by point, I'm afraid; I'm 68 years old.

Almost every bit of land on the planet is claimed by someone, and has a border of some sort, even if only notionally, so your claim that to take possession of territory and partition it is not part of natural human behaviour doesn't have much credibility. It seems more like something that you would like to think true, than something that actually is true.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:04 pm**

Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:40 pm
Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:34 pm
Maia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:24 am

Yes, in some cases. Delphi, for example, was considered neutral ground. But it can't be the whole story. The Acropolis at Athens was right in the middle of Athens, and most cities had temples of their own.
By the time of the Panathenaia sure, but even Athens had its own borderline temples.
It may well have done, but Athens, and its Acropolis, are very old, having existed during the Mycenaean period.

Unless they actually dig up the Classical Temple they are never going to be able to furnish evidence as to the existence of a temple in the previous period, Though none of that is going to change what I said about ritual meeting places at remote and liminal spaces.

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:56 am**

It is more likely they built the cemetery wall much more recently and used the visible sarcophagus as a obvious boundary point for the wall. Good chance many are buried outside the wall in now unmarked Graves.

There are not that many boundary temples I'm aware of. In general yould use the Rajamandala and topography for determining the center of gravity of neighboring polities and then the borders that can be held. It's a precise science, not a ritual. Temples for the in-between spaces usually are not a thing, customs and guards are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajamandala

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