Philosophy Now Forum

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:21 pm

dattaswami wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:39 pm In that stage, God is totally unimaginable since no inherent characteristic of God is imaginable. You can’t speak anything about God in such unimaginable state.

But you've claimed to know the motives of the this unimabinable God. You say you know why he created the universe. For his entertainment.

God created the souls for His entertainment and in this there is no trace of doubt. But, at the same time, justice was always supported and injustice was always destroyed by Him. Based on this merit, the souls can’t find fault or blame God in any angle.

I already told that Veda which is a scripture refer that God created this entire universe for His own entertainment .

I have to take one scripture of some religion and I have to be subjected to the criticism. Therefore, I ignore the criticism. I know what I am in My inner consciousness. My inner self is the real witness as long as I am the preacher of Universal Religion to My inner self, I need not fear for any external criticism from any angle.

The reason for selecting Veda as the primary standard is that even today the Veda is being preserved by oral recitation with the help of thousands of families. If you go to older and older times millions of families were reciting Veda just to preserve it from any type of intrusions or deletions. In Indian spiritual field there are several branches of philosophy who fight with each other orally.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:03 pm God created the souls for His entertainment and in this there is no trace of doubt.

I did understand that you believed this and you already presented it as fact (for you).

I already told that Veda which is a scripture refer that God created this entire universe for His own entertainment .

So wrote and so believe some humans.

I have to take one scripture of some religion and I have to be subjected to the criticism. Therefore, I ignore the criticism. I know what I am in My inner consciousness. My inner self is the real witness as long as I am the preacher of Universal Religion to My inner self, I need not fear for any external criticism from any angle.

Yes, I know you are sure you are right.

The reason for selecting Veda as the primary standard is that even today the Veda is being preserved by oral recitation with the help of thousands of families. If you go to older and older times millions of families were reciting Veda just to preserve it from any type of intrusions or deletions. In Indian spiritual field there are several branches of philosophy who fight with each other orally.

Yes, when many people believe something it must be true. Fallible humans cannot be wrong about the unimaginable.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:03 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:21 pm

dattaswami wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:39 pm In that stage, God is totally unimaginable since no inherent characteristic of God is imaginable. You can’t speak anything about God in such unimaginable state.

But you've claimed to know the motives of the this unimabinable God. You say you know why he created the universe. For his entertainment.

God created the souls for His entertainment and in this there is no trace of doubt. But, at the same time, justice was always supported and injustice was always destroyed by Him. Based on this merit, the souls can’t find fault or blame God in any angle.

I suggest that because God has purposely designed humans to function at an attenuated (low) level of consciousness in order to make this "dream-like" illusion of objective reality seem natural and logical to us, God, in turn, takes all responsibility ("blame") for all of the so-called "evilness" that takes place on this planet.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:03 pm I already told that Veda which is a scripture refer that God created this entire universe for His own entertainment .

Yes, it's probably true that the universe is a source of great entertainment for the Being who created it. After all, if you were in possession of eternal life, you too would be seeking some sort of entertainment to ward-off boredom.

However, swami, did it ever occur to you that the creation of material bodies (and, especially, "brains") may also be the actual (and only) means by which God can awaken new eternal souls into existence?

In other words,...

(and if you weren't so singularly focused on Vedic dogma and took into account the doctrines of the other world religions)

...God isn't just creating eternal souls for his entertainment, but for the explicit purpose of replicating himself (herself/itself) by conceiving and giving birth to her own literal offspring (children/progeny).

In other words, not only is this...



...the physiological means by which humans replicate themselves, but is also how God replicates herself. I'm talking about a replication that requires a second and final birth (via the process that we call "death") into the transcendent context of reality where our true and ultimate form (the same form as God) will finally be revealed to us.

Furthermore, your belief in the false doctrine of reincarnation and the nonsense of inherited (past life) karma being the reason for why we've been assigned our particular lot in life (be it good or bad) is precisely why there is bigotry in Hinduism in the form of a caste system that includes "untouchables."

The Hindu caste system is an abomination that must be eliminated.

If you, swami, do not understand that our eternal souls are absolutely equal to one another (indeed, equal to God herself) with an eternally evolving and fruitful purpose,...

...then you are simply demonstrating how the "old paradigm" religion of Hinduism is woefully incomplete.

You need to realize that Hinduism (just like all of the other ancient religions) holds a mere piece of the grand puzzle. It is a puzzle piece that is founded upon "hazy glimpses" of a higher truth that will only be made available to us at the moment of death.

I mean you no offense, swami, but the bottom line is that your devoted adherence to Hinduism establishes you as being nothing more than one of the characters in the following illustration...


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seeds wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:31 pm being the reason for why we've been assigned our particular lot in life (be it good or bad) is precisely why there is bigotry in Hinduism in the form of a caste system that includes "untouchables."

The Hindu caste system is an abomination that must be eliminated.

The Gita says that the caste is based on the qualities and profession (Guna Karma Vibhagashah) of the person. [The four castes are Brahmins (priest caste), Kshatriyas (caste of warriors or noblemen), Vaishya (businessmen caste) and Shudra (laborer caste)]. Qualities were always respected. Rama and Krishna were non-Brahmins. Yet Brahmin priests wash the statues of Rama and Krishna and swallow the washings as sacred water. In the Bhagavatam it is written that Sūta, who was a low-caste person, was made Brahma in the sacrifice [in a sacrifice, the chief officiating priest is called Brahma]. Ravana was a Brahmin but was condemned.

Every human being is a Shudra by birth and can become a Brahmin only by practicing the true meaning of the Vedas (Janmana Jaayate). Brahmana [Brahmin] means he who knows Brahman. Brahman also means the Veda in Sanskrit. Every caste contains good people as well as bad people. Shabari and Kannappa belonged to the family of untouchables [lower than Shudras]. Nobody is untouchable by birth. In the Veda only four castes were mentioned. How did this fifth caste come into existence? All the bad people in the four castes were expelled from the village just like a bad student is expelled from the school. Thus untouchability is due to the qualities and deeds and not by birth. Brahmins are worshipping the pictures of Shabari and Kannappa in their prayer rooms.

God said in the Gita that He created four castes based on qualities and deeds and that He is responsible for the caste system and that He is also not responsible for the caste system (Chaaturvarnyam mayaa srushtam, gunakarmavibhaagashah, tasya kartaarapi maam, viddhyakartaaramavyayam...). The total verse shall be understood carefully with the help of shrewd analysis. There are three points:- i) Caste system is created by God based on qualities and deeds only. ii) God is responsible for the caste system decided by qualities and deeds in the beginning of creation. iii) But, later on, He was not responsible for the caste system. Based on these three points, the concept must be built-up.

In the beginning of creation, God created four castes based on qualities and deeds. This means that in the beginning God created four types of souls assigning them their individual duties. On performing these duties, corresponding qualities also are developed in these four types of souls. For example, a Brahmana type of soul was doing propagation of spiritual knowledge and devotion to lead all the souls towards God (Brahma nayati iti Braahmanah). By this duty, the quality of awareness and alertness of intelligence is developed. The issues of Brahmana were also trained by his elders in the same duty and the issues were also doing this duty very well. Here lies the important point. This may look that the issue of Brahmana must be also Brahmana by birth itself since the qualities of Brahmana must have been passed to his issue. This is the wrong concept developed showing that caste is by birth only. It is not so. The issue of Brahmana also became Brahmana not by being the issue of Brahmana, but, became Brahmana due to the training given by his father and other ancestors. This truth is misunderstood and misinterpreted as the concept that the issue of a Brahmana shall be Brahmana since the qualities are transferred through blood. The genes don’t transfer the qualities, which can transfer only certain mannerisms. If you take the first generation of caste system, it is created by God in the sense that certain specific duties coming under the name of a caste were assigned to a type of soul and by this the caste system is created by God. But, the qualities related to a caste are not created by God, which are only learnt by the souls while performing their specific duties. This establishes the following points:-

1) The caste system originally created by God was only assigning specific duties to specific souls.

2) The qualities (talents) related to the castes were not given by God, which were imbibed by the specific soul in performing those specific duties.

3) The qualities imbibed in performing specific duties are not transferred from the soul to its issue.

4) The same qualities are seen in the issue of a specific type of soul only due to the training given by its ancestors, which didn’t come through the blood of ancestors.

5) This whole system appeared in wrong way that the issue of a Brahmana shall be Brahmana because the qualities of father will be transferred to his issue through blood. The actual truth here is that the qualities of the issue of a Brahmana appeared due to the training given by his ancestors and surrounding atmosphere.

6) A quality enters the human soul from the surrounding atmosphere only and not from blood.

God said that He is the establisher of the caste system in the beginning by assigning specific duties of a caste to a specific soul (Braahmanosya mukhamaasiit… Veda). In this situation only God is the creator of caste system in the sense that He assigned certain duties to certain souls in the beginning. Later on, the issues imbibing the qualities and professional talents through training from ancestors and from surrounding atmosphere appeared as if they have attained these qualities through blood.

But, an issue may not have interest in that specific profession and may be interested in some other profession. In such case, such issue will not get the caste of its father, but, gets the caste of the profession in which it is interested. In this situation, God says that He is not the establisher of the caste system since any soul can get any caste by taking intense interest in such profession and get its related qualities. Vishwaamitra born as Kshatriya became Brahmana by the qualities and deeds imbibed from the atmosphere. Similarly, Parashuraama born as Brahmana became Kshatriya.

This finally means that the caste system is not by birth, but, by qualities only. Shri Rama and Shri Krishna are Brahmanas by qualities and Ravana and Ajaamila are not Brahmanas due to absence of the specific qualities. A Brahmana born to a Brahmana can become Brahmana by the qualities imbibed in the atmosphere of his family. But, a Brahmana born to a Brahmana can’t become Brahmana simply by birth without the related qualities and deeds. Such Brahmana by birth (means born to a Brahmana by qualities) is called as Brahmabandhu (means related to Brahmana by birth) and can’t be called as real Brahmana.

You shall not say that the issue of a Brahmana by birth is Brahmana whether the issue possesses the qualities of Brahmana or not. We shall not also say that the issue of a Brahmana by qualities shall not become Brahmana whether it possesses the qualities or not. Both these are negative extremes. The real point is that anybody having the qualities of Brahmana alone is Brahmana. When the qualities of Brahmana caste are absent, a person born to a real Brahmana can’t be Brahmana simply by birth. This is perfectly logical and completely justified concept.

The very first sentence of the verse is that the caste system is simply based on qualities and deeds and this system was created by God. This first sentence is the soul of the concept presented in the beginning itself. In the next sentence of the verse, the above concept is not contradicted at all. The second sentence only says that God is the creator and not creator of the caste system. This mutual contradiction can be solved by taking the two possibilities separately. First Possibility:- God created the caste system (Tasya kartaaramapi…).

This applies to the beginning situation of the creation when there is no caste system and simply four souls are created as per the Veda. Each soul is assigned specific duty of a caste. Here, these four souls are not different in qualities because all the four souls are born to the same God. Hence, all these four souls have the same qualities. God created four types of duties coming under four headlines of castes. This creation means that God created theoretically the caste system. Remember that the souls were not differently created. God only created the system of castes and did not create four souls belonging to different castes because all the four souls came from the same God. These four souls do not have previous births so that you can assume some difference in their qualities. The created four souls have human bodies with blood. You may argue that the issues of these four souls belong to the same castes of their fathers. This is not possible because qualities are not transferred through blood.

Hence, even if you argue that the first four souls created by God have different qualities induced by God (because Brahmana is born from face having intelligence originally), you cannot achieve anything since the blood of four souls can’t transfer those qualities to the issues respectively. Hence, the qualities are induced in to the issues only by the training given by forefathers. Even the original souls attained the qualities relevant to their castes while doing their duties. A teacher gains teaching talent while he is teaching and the experience of the profession alone induces its related qualities. This possibility is more correct since the first four souls were not having previous births.

Even if you say that God induced four different qualities in to four souls by which the four souls did their professions very well, we don’t have any objection to this opinion, but, there is no trace of use of this opinion since the blood of the four souls do not transfer the qualities in to their issues. Second Possibility:- Second possibility is that God is not creator of the caste system (Viddhyakartaaramavyayam…). This applies to the situation of the world after the creation. This indicates the running system of classification of castes after the creation. This means that God is not interfering with the caste system because the caste system is simply based on qualities and deeds only. This means that a Brahmana by birth having qualities of Brahmana becomes Brahmana and a Brahmana by birth not having qualities of Brahmana is no more a Brahmana.

In this way, God is creator of caste system in the beginning of creation only and not after the creation since the qualities and deeds naturally decide the caste in which God is not involved. This interpretation gives the concept, which is properly correlated. ‘Caste system by birth’ created by foolish tape-recorder priests has brought split in Hinduism. This is time to bring out the concept perfectly to unite Hinduism. Unless we unite one religion, how can we unite different religions? Retaining superiority complex by birth without qualities and deeds is illogical, unjust and foolish.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:31 pm ...then you are simply demonstrating how the "old paradigm" religion of Hinduism is woefully incomplete.

You need to realize that Hinduism (just like all of the other ancient religions) holds a mere piece of the grand puzzle. It is a puzzle piece that is founded upon "hazy glimpses" of a higher truth that will only be made available to us at the moment of death.

I mean you no offense, swami, but the bottom line is that your devoted adherence to Hinduism establishes you as being nothing more than one of the characters in the following illustration...


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Hinduism is a mini representative model of the unity among various religions in the world. There are different philosophies within Hinduism as there are different religions in the world. Unity within Hinduism represents the removal of different walls in the house to make all the rooms united—as one big hall. Unity among religions in the world is like uniting all such big halls to make the one biggest hall.

In Hinduism, the Advaita philosophy of Shankara stands for the monism of God and the soul. The Vishishta Advaita philosophy of Ramanuja speaks of the soul as an inseparable part of God. The Dvaita philosophy of Madhva speaks about the total difference between God and the soul. The basic point here is that these three philosophies apply only to the Human Incarnation of God, in which the unimaginable God has charged the imaginable soul in that human body. These philosophies do not refer the case of an ordinary soul and God. When the invisible current charges the visible metallic wire, both can be treated as one and also as different. This basic point has been forgotten and the quarrels started.

Similarly, the unity among all the religions of the world can be achieved by understanding that there is only one unimaginable God charging different visible and imaginable human forms like Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed etc. Since God is basically unimaginable, there can be only one God; the existence of two unimaginable is absurd. Imaginable items can be many, but such imaginable (visible) items can be only different media for the entry of God. They cannot be God Himself.

Rigid conservatism can be refuted by a powerful argument in this way: If Jesus alone is the Savior, His message, the Bible, should have been propagated to all countries simultaneously. India was discovered only in the 17th century by the West and so 17 generations passed away without the fortune of coming in contact with the Holy Bible. The poor souls have gone to hell for no fault of theirs. Had the opportunity been given to them, at least some of them might have been saved. This clearly shows the partiality of God for confining His message only to Jerusalem for 1700 years. God is only one since every religion says that only one God created this entire Earth and there is only one Earth. The one God, Father of all humanity, should not be partial. Rigid conservatives of any religion have no answer for this absurd conclusion. This reasoning applies equally to every conservative religion. But there is answer from our side, which is: The same God came to all countries in different human forms giving the same message in different languages. Hence, God cannot be blamed for being partial.

You cannot say that an unimaginable item cannot exist. The boundary of the universe is unimaginable. Even scientists accept it. Hence, there is no objection for the existence of the unimaginable God. Similarly, the existence of hell need not be rejected just because I cannot show you the exact location of hell in space. You too have not shown Me the absence of hell in this infinite space! Therefore, a 50–50 probability of the existence of hell must be admitted. In that case, it is better to assume the existence of hell and avoid sin. A wise blind man will err on the safe side and turn back immediately, if hears two contradictory statements: one saying that there is a fire ahead in his path and the other that there is no fire in his path.

Today, powerful logical knowledge is required in philosophy since the analytical faculty of the public is well developed due to the growth of science. Lord Dattatreya, the Universal Preacher, is always ready with such knowledge to face the need of the time.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:31 pm
In other words,...

(and if you weren't so singularly focused on Vedic dogma and took into account the doctrines of the other world religions)

...God isn't just creating eternal souls for his entertainment, but for the explicit purpose of replicating himself (herself/itself) by conceiving and giving birth to her own literal offspring (children/progeny).
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All the souls are not God. If that is so a sinner also become God!! Disciples of Shankara thought that they are also God. Then Shankara drank molten lead which they could not do. THus proving to them that Shankara alone was God. Such God is called Human incarnation of God and comes to this world in every human generation to preach the divine knowledge, like Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Shankara, Sai Baba etc. Such Human incarnations of GOd alone is God and not all or any X, Y Or Z.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:16 am

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:31 pm
In other words,...

(and if you weren't so singularly focused on Vedic dogma and took into account the doctrines of the other world religions)

...God isn't just creating eternal souls for his entertainment, but for the explicit purpose of replicating himself (herself/itself) by conceiving and giving birth to her own literal offspring (children/progeny).
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All the souls are not God. If that is so a sinner also become God!!

Try to pay attention to what was actually written.

I never said that all souls are God. No, I said that all souls (human souls) are the literal "offspring" (as in children/progeny) of God, thus, family members of the "same species of being" as God.

And, yes, that also includes all of the so-called "sinners," which is not only a vague and relative term, but is simply a temporary condition brought about by the "purposely designed" low level of consciousness that humans must function at in order to make this lower dimension of reality seem logical and believable to us.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:16 am Disciples of Shankara thought that they are also God. Then Shankara drank molten lead which they could not do. THus proving to them that Shankara alone was God.

You naively believe that an ancient human known as Shankara "drank molten lead" in the same way that you naively believe that the charlatan Shri Satya Sai Baba vomited-up a golden egg in the video I brought to your attention, here - https://youtu.be/oNVJyycAZYw ...



What was pictured in that debunking video clearly showed Satya Sai Baba's amateurish magician's trickery which he uses to fool his extremely gullible devotees, of which you simply waved-off as an attempt by atheists to...

"...tamper with videos to negate genuine miracles..."

However, any honest and critical examination of the video would clearly show that you are wrong.

There is another member of this forum who calls himself "Immanuel Can" who, like you, will not allow logic and reason to have any effect on his childlike faith in the mythological stories handed down to us from ancient minds. And that's fine, for we are all free to believe whatever we wish.

And my point is that if you hope to be viewed as having any true wisdom whatsoever, then you need to realize that Hinduism and the Vedic philosophies are simply (and to borrow from Buddhism) the components that comprise the temporary "raft" you have chosen to carry you across the waters of this earthly life - a raft that will be abandoned when you reach the shore of death.

In the meantime, all of the lengthy (copy and paste) essays that you are flooding this forum with in your obvious attempt to transfer the entire verbatim contents of your blogs to this international philosophy site,...

...is simply you standing on your chosen raft and thinking that the design of its riggings is far superior to the Christian raft, or the Islamic raft, or the Judaic raft, or the Shinto raft, or the Confucian raft, etc., etc.,...

...when, in fact, as I stated earlier, they are all but mere "puzzle pieces" that hold their own unique and fuzzy glimpses of a "higher truth" that will only be revealed to us at the moment of death.

Now, if you reply to this with another one of your copy and paste essays from your blogs,...

...then you will be proving that you are incapable of any "on the spot" introspective and improvisational responses to challenges made against your child-like belief in (and defense of) the stories involving the shenanigans of false gods and charlatans, be they ancient or contemporary.
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seeds wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:26 pm
What was pictured in that debunking video clearly showed Satya Sai Baba's amateurish magician's trickery which he uses to fool his extremely gullible devotees, of which you simply waved-off as an attempt by atheists to...
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You think that materialization of matter alone is miracle, which should be done in presence of invited scientists. In fact, Shri Satya Sai Baba did miracles in presence of several to scientists. In the presence of a top professor of science, He converted the statue of an animal in to real animal when the professor thought that Shri Baba was creating inert materials only by magic.

Don’t you give any standard to that scientist? God is giving various experiences to devotees in their lives by solving their impossible problems and don’t you think that these are miracles. Millions of devotees in millions of generations have experienced the miraculous powers of God in their lives in the case of variety of incidents in which the impossible incidents have become possible by His miraculous powers.

Certainly, magic exists in this world and false God-men exhibiting magic in the name of miracles shall be criticised. But, what about various impossible incidents, which were made possible as experienced in the lives of millions of devotees since the creation of this world? Do you say that such experiences are also magic? Do you think that all these devotees are uneducated and unwise without analysis?

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:26 pm Try to pay attention to what was actually written.

I never said that all souls are God. No, I said that all souls (human souls) are the literal "offspring" (as in children/progeny) of God, thus, family members of the "same species of being" as God.
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Devotees treat God as Father and God is the Divine Father and not the biological father. If God is the biological father, all the male souls and female souls that are created must be brothers and sisters, in which case marriages should not take place. If God had a wife and if His wife carried on each soul as the child in her womb and then delivered the child, in such case God can be the biological father.

God has created the soul like the biological father and the nature or creation or Prakruti has created the body for the soul by the power of God only. Inert Prakruti can’t be the non-inert biological mother so that we can give equal credit as given to the mother. The process of birth of the child from biological parents is quite different from the birth of a soul with body from God and nature.

There are several occasions when God created the soul with body by His will as in the case of the birth of God Viirabhadra from the hair-lock of the head of God Shiva. Here, God created nature while the biological father does not create the biological mother.

Hence, when the Gita says that God is the father like seed giving birth to a tree (Ahaṃ bīja pradaḥ pitā), it means that God is the creator of the seed, which does not mean that He is not the creator of earth that forms the body of the plant. Here, the simile is not a complete simile because God created the earth as well just as He created the seed. Simile shall be taken as a partial comparison only. God is said to be the intellectual as well as the material cause of the creation (Abhinna nimittopādāna kāraṇaṃ Brahma). Hence, God is the Divine Father, who is the total cause for the soul and its body.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:31 pm ...

I mean you no offense, swami, but the bottom line is that your devoted adherence to Hinduism establishes you as being nothing more than one of the characters in the following illustration...


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of course, it's a republican!

-Imp

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:26 pm Try to pay attention to what was actually written.

I am having the same experience. It is as if he is not paying attention to what is written. As if anything one writes is a jumping off point for another lecture. Sometimes that lecture is related. Like you might find it in a book on a shelf near the book you were looking for. But the discussion does not reach the level of a dialogue.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 3:55 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:26 pm Try to pay attention to what was actually written.

I am having the same experience. It is as if he is not paying attention to what is written. As if anything one writes is a jumping off point for another lecture. Sometimes that lecture is related. Like you might find it in a book on a shelf near the book you were looking for. But the discussion does not reach the level of a dialogue.

Agreed.

Like Immanuel Can, Dattaswami doesn't seem to be interested in examining anything that might call into question the veracity of his belief system.

Like I said earlier, his goal seems to be the transferring of the verbatim contents of the hundreds (thousands?) of his lengthy essays from his blog sites over to here.

Now I have no problem with someone wanting to copy snippets (or images) from their website to support their arguments, for I'm guilty of that myself.

But, come on now, to flood the forum with hundreds of new threads whose lengthy OP's (sermons) can be Googled back to blog sites from which they were simply copied and pasted from, is not what these sorts of discussion forums are set up for.

If nothing else, it is obvious (based on our comments) that it makes people angry and turns them off to whatever message he is attempting to convey.

I would think that a "real" gooroo would be wise enough to figure that out.
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dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:55 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:26 pm
What was pictured in that debunking video clearly showed Satya Sai Baba's amateurish magician's trickery which he uses to fool his extremely gullible devotees, of which you simply waved-off as an attempt by atheists to...
_______

You think that materialization of matter alone is miracle, which should be done in presence of invited scientists....

Are you asking me what I think, or are you telling me what I think?

If you are asking me what I think, then I think that you are completely uninterested in examining whether or not Satya Sai Baba is a charlatan because of what it might do to your personal belief system.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:55 pm ...In fact, Shri Satya Sai Baba did miracles in presence of several to scientists. In the presence of a top professor of science,...

This is pure "hearsay." Who are the "scientists" you are referring to?

Who is this "top professor of science" of which you speak? I want to see his/her credentials and question him/her.

For all I know it might be this guy...

dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:55 pm He converted the statue of an animal in to real animal when the professor thought that Shri Baba was creating inert materials only by magic.

Do you actually think that you can just say these things to us and, like those gullible idiots who fell for Baba's amateurish trick of vomiting up that golden egg, we're just going to take your word for it?

dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:55 pm Don’t you give any standard to that scientist?

Again, what "scientist" are you talking about? Give us a name and his/her credentials so that we can follow-up on your claims.

I'd ask for video proof, but we already have video proof of Baba's chicanery - proof that you are clearly afraid to examine for fear of it revealing something that, again, might disrupt your belief system.

dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:55 pm Certainly, magic exists in this world and false God-men exhibiting magic in the name of miracles shall be criticised. But, what about various impossible incidents, which were made possible as experienced in the lives of millions of devotees since the creation of this world? Do you say that such experiences are also magic?

Are you referring to the ridiculous (again, hearsay) nonsense of Shankara drinking molten lead?

Perhaps Shankara could have put the crowning touch on that miracle by having his devotees witness him expelling perfectly formed fishline sinkers from his hindquarters the next day...



Now, before you force me to get even more offensive, I understand and appreciate the fact that all you are trying to do with all of these alleged examples of "miracles" is to offer up proof for the existence of God, right?

Well, I already believe that this universe has a living, conscious Creator. So, I personally don't need any convincing of such a thing.

However, what I am interested in finding out is, based on the wisdom you've presumably acquired from studying the Vedas, which, in turn, allowed you to write the hundreds of essays you've been posting, what then is your take on what Hinduism suggests a soul's ultimate form and eternal purpose might be?

In other words, once one has achieved "moksha," then what? What will you be doing from that point forward?

And please don't tell me what such-and-such verses in the ancient Veda's have to say about it.

No, instead, try offering (right here, right now) your own personal opinion of what sort of logical reason, or goal, or purpose that a soul might have if they have been given the gift of eternal life.
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Yet another thread which abuses philosophical language, showing an ignorance of the meaning of logic.

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:50 pm
And please don't tell me what such-and-such verses in the ancient Veda's have to say about it.

No, instead, try offering (right here, right now) your own personal opinion of what sort of logical reason, or goal, or purpose that a soul might have if they have been given the gift of eternal life.
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Kindly watch the following video:



https://youtu.be/lnCwebH0gyk

There are hundred types of miracles performed by Baba among which creation of sacred ash from the hand is one. Only one type of miracle is criticised by one type of video only. What about disproving other types of miracles? I did not find any video disproving any type of these other ninety nine types of miracles.

One miracle of these ninety nine types is:- a severe cancer patient came to Baba and Baba told that his cancer is cancelled. On diagnosis the cancer was not present and the patient lived for many many years more. Can you give Me a video disproving this miracle? Except the above said one type of miracle involving movement of hand, no other type of miracle is disproved so far.

Now tell Me, if a person can do ninety nine types of miracles perfectly, will He (Baba) do one fraud cheap miracle to get bad name? Did you see any hotel having ninety nine wonderful facilities and having one small facility as worst so that the name of the hotel is spoiled by that one small cheap facility? Hence, in view of this logic as said above I conclude that the one video presented by the atheist is a fraud video.

Such fraudulent tricks can be easily made in the photographic technology. Did this atheist catch the hand of Baba while producing the ash and showed the ash tablet between the fingers? If he has done so, that scene could have come in the video. Since the atheist is unable to disprove other ninety nine types of miracles, the correct conclusion is that the atheist has made some manipulation in the video.