Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:29 pm
If we have two points related to X and Y and one does not come after another one then you cannot have a change.

Yes, I know what you are saying, but everything you have told us so far is what most people take for granted anyway, so it isn't any kind of novel insight, is it? All I am suggesting is that what most of us take for granted might not actually be the case. That's where my suggestions end, as I don't have any as to how that hypothesis might be explored.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:42 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:29 pm
If we have two points related to X and Y and one does not come after another one then you cannot have a change.

Yes, I know what you are saying, but everything you have told us so far is what most people take for granted anyway, so it isn't any kind of novel insight, is it? All I am suggesting is that what most of us take for granted might not actually be the case. That's where my suggestions end, as I don't have any as to how that hypothesis might be explored.

Not everything that I said is granted. For example, time is needed for change.

I think time refers to two different things: subjective time and objective , if relative , time.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35356

Time is experienced (sometimes measured) change.

The laws of physics explain how things change over time. Δ^∞ (change over time, infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever) is the formula for Actuality.

Time is experienced as a sub-set of Actuality that changes at a speed that is compatible with our embodied frame of reference, the clarity of our senses.

The past is remembered experience. The future is anticipated experience.

[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=587209 time=1659277417 user_id=3619]
I think time refers to two different things: subjective time and objective , if relative , time.
[/quote]

Tone is always experienced change. Sometimes it is measured.

[quote=bahman post_id=587201 time=1659275045 user_id=12593]
[quote=Harbal post_id=587187 time=1659271365 user_id=9107]
[quote=bahman post_id=587186 time=1659270593 user_id=12593]

If we have two points related to X and Y and one does not come after another one then you cannot have a change.
[/quote]

Yes, I know what you are saying, but everything you have told us so far is what most people take for granted anyway, so it isn't any kind of novel insight, is it? All I am suggesting is that what most of us take for granted might not actually be the case. That's where my suggestions end, as I don't have any as to how that hypothesis might be explored.
[/quote]
Not everything that I said is granted. For example, time is needed for change.
[/quote]

Time is not needed For change, time is the measure Of change.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:46 pm viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35356

Time is experienced (sometimes measured) change.

The laws of physics explain how things change over time. Δ^∞ (change over time, infinite in all directions, at all scales, forever) is the formula for Actuality.

Time is experienced as a sub-set of Actuality that changes at a speed that is compatible with our embodied frame of reference, the clarity of our senses.

The past is remembered experience. The future is anticipated experience.

No, time is not experienced change. You can experience time when there is no change. Have you ever been waiting?

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:49 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:44 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:42 pm Yes, I know what you are saying, but everything you have told us so far is what most people take for granted anyway, so it isn't any kind of novel insight, is it? All I am suggesting is that what most of us take for granted might not actually be the case. That's where my suggestions end, as I don't have any as to how that hypothesis might be explored.

Not everything that I said is granted. For example, time is needed for change.

Time is not needed For change, time is the measure Of change.

Old Aristotle's teaching. What do you mean by time is the measure of change?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:57 pm Time exists otherwise the change was impossible. What could ever exist mean if time is not a substance?

Well, does change exist? Is it a substance?

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:37 am Well, does change exist? Is it a substance?

Yes it does exist. I have some in my pocket, as a matter of fact.

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:01 am

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:37 am Well, does change exist? Is it a substance?

Yes it does exist. I have some in my pocket, as a matter of fact.

Well, that's metaphysics sorted.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:01 pm Time is a substance (by substance I mean that it exists and has some property) that allows changes. To show this, consider a change, X to Y. X and Y cannot lay at the same point since otherwise, they are simultaneous. This means that we at least need two points of a variable one comes after another. The distance between two points must be finite otherwise the change does not take place. This distance is nothing more than duration since one point comes after another one. This variable we call time.

I agree time is change which is finite by it's very nature.

If time does exist, then wouldn't we be able to experience the past or the future?

What if nothing ever moved, changed or aged? what if movement, change, and age were just illusions?


.

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:37 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:57 pm Time exists otherwise the change was impossible. What could ever exist mean if time is not a substance?

Well, does change exist? Is it a substance?

Yes change exists. Yes, change is in a substance. I have difficulty to come with an example of something that is not a substance. Basically, to me reality is made of mind and qualia which both of them exist, mind is an irreducible substance and qualia are reducible substances. Change is a sort of qulia as well since we experience it.

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:05 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:37 am...does change exist? Is it a substance?

Yes change exists. Yes, change is in a substance.

I guess what you are saying is that change is dependent on there being things to change. Time on the other hand would march on, even if nothing happened.

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:05 pmI have difficulty to come with an example of something that is not a substance. Basically, to me reality is made of mind and qualia which both of them exist, mind is an irreducible substance and qualia are reducible substances.

I don't understand what qualia are reducible to.

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:05 pmChange is a sort of qulia as well since we experience it.

Again I'm guessing, but I take it you mean that time is an irreducible substance, while change is reducible because there needs to be things to change, and we experience it. If that's a fair assessment, then don't we experience time?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:51 pm
I agree time is change which is finite by it's very nature.

If time does exist, then wouldn't we be able to experience the past or the future?

What if nothing ever moved, changed or aged? what if movement, change, and age were just illusions?

Another way of answering (What is time?)

Think more about who or what is asking the question..bahman.

Question: I would like to understand the significance of a space in which the observer and the observed are not.


Krishnamurti: We only know the space as the observer and the observed. I look at this microphone as an observer, and there is the object which is the microphone. There is a space between the observer and the observed. This space is distance, distance being time. There is the observer and the distance between him and a star or mountain. You are asking what the other space is, which is not this. I cannot tell you; I can only tell you that as long as this space as the observer and the observed exists, the other is not. There is a way of freeing the observer who creates the space as the observer and the observed.


However much you may extend that space, it will always exist. There is an aeroplane overhead. You, as an observer, as a listener, listen to that sound. You are the listener, and the sound is there—there is a gap. The gap is a time interval. There is the observer and there is the observed: you and your wife or husband; you and your house; you and the river; you and your country; you and the government; you and your religion. As long as this space exists, as long as there is contradiction, there must be conflict.

To free the mind of the observer, no escape is possible. Don’t escape, don’t seek. Face the fact of what you are; don’t translate in terms of what you think you are, of what you ‘should be’. When you face the fact of what you actually are, without escaping, without naming it, without the word, then the fact becomes totally different. When you do that with every reaction, with every movement of thought, there is a freedom from the observer. Then there is a totally different dimension of space.

Q: How can one experience this different dimension of space?

K: You are sitting there, I am sitting here—that’s all. All you know is the space between you, there, and me, or between you and the mountain, you and a tree, you and another. When you know that space, you know you are not in contact with anything. You are in isolation.