Where is hidden Vacuum?

[gfellow]

At the point when the copy becomes a indistinguishable from the original, are they both not the same until proven otherwise?

Nope. Two distinct 'items' that look alike does not qualify them for 'the same'.
The 'same' thing can be in two places at the same moment, but that isn't what we are discussing. A hypothetically perfect copy of the 'Mona Lisa' would not be considered 'the same' by the auction house.

How would the auction house know?

Not possible to define that which does not exist; space defines volume, volume defines space. Space is the apparent relationship between volumes/things.

May I respectfully suggest that is an intuitive, but not necessarily accurate supposition?

I can accept that, as long as there is the "not necessarily" moderator...
It might also, necessarily, be quite accurate. There are many physists who would also see it in that context. Though 'intuitive, my intuition is quite accurate and getting better all the time. 'Intuitive' is "not necessarily" a bad word.

I believe it was Rabelais that stated "Nature abhors a vacuum"

The French satirist wrote political satire such as the 'hilarious' book 'Gargantua and Pantagruel' (his mom). A scathing send-up of politicians...
I think that is was Baruch Spinoza's quote. Thats what 'wiki' says, anyway. I know that it wasn't me...
"Nature (seems to) abhors a vacuum" as there are none to/can be found.
But who knows what new devices for 'perceiving' will be developed in the next few centuries. I'll keep an eye out! *__-

Not a big bone of contention, being a big fan of Spinoza. My source for Rabelais was here

If the nature of space is to press in on a vacuum from all sides,

Thats a huge 'if'!

Consider thunderclap caused by lightning. It is the result of a high pressure collapsing in on a low pressure caused by the momentary intense heat of the lightning. Merely extend the phenomenon to its extreme. I believe the z-pinch/gravimeter lab experiment will confirm that at the moment of electrical discharge, small void/non-space events are occur.

does that very action not define the volume upon which it is pressing?

A 'volume' is a something, a 'vacuum' is not a something.
But 'if' your 'if' is valid, if, thebn your following statement could be reasonable.
I cannot accept it, though, for stated reasons.

A higher pressure falls in upon a lower pressure. You do not wish - even for the sake of argument - to acknowledge that this is may merely be a lower energy state of a space/non-space phenomena?

In a very real sense, I agree with your statement. In itself, a void/absolute vacuum is undefinable; it is the surrounding space that announces its (non?)presence.

Everything/anything is defined by everything else, context. Ultimately the complete Universe is necessary for the complete definition of anything.
I see that your site is about 30 years old. I can wait to see if your hypotheses are validated by mainstream science. They'd just love to find a true vacuum, put one in the Smithsonian beside the 'dark matter' and FSM!

Don't know about the other two, but I harbor hopes I will see an laboratory and natural observation of absolute vacuum in my life time.

Physicists Who Know That Nothing Can Move in Spacetime
Is time an illusion? (no 'time'/no 'motion')
Impossibility of Time

No 'time' = no 'motion' = no 'gravity'

Agreed. The void/absolute vacuum is - for want of a better phrase, a reverse singularity. Within it's boundary there is no time/motion/gravity - or for that matter, no volume. This non-space can only be described by the space imploding upon it.

Interesting hypothesis. We'll just have to wait to see if it is ever validated by perception/existence. We can perceive the iron filings all aquiver in a certain pattern, but id the magnet is not perceived, it doesn't exist. It might 'exist' as a notion or concept or hypothesis, but it has no existence itself unless 'perceived' directly. We can as well hypothesize invisible nano-martians moving the iron filings, formulate all sorts of tests and experiments, even gedanken, but until and unless perceived directly, no existence.

That is why studies of 'time' (and 'motion' and 'gravity') as an actuality, result in paradox, a sign of error.
They exist as mirages in thoughts.
A matter of Perspective.

All experiments have to be performed within space, but it does not preclude that one cannot discern the impact upon space by non-space phenomenon.

I'm willing to wait for your hypothesis to be either verified or refuted by 'perception', one way or another.
My prediction is that a 'true' vacuum will never be found, directly, as one cannot exist.

I feel that we have both stated our cases, and frankly, I would really be tickled to have this huge house of cards that I have built go swirling off into (and thus instantly destroying) your new-found true vacuum! The very moment 'found' would be the very moment annihilated! Rather like opposite Perspectives annihilating themselves the moment of manifestation, which is why all of existence ever exists for just one Planck moment!
All done here?
peace

Indeed, a devilishly, ticklishly, conundrum. For sure, done here - and thanks for indulging me. Peace.

[Arising_uk]

Unsupported yes, but proposed. Did you get a chance to view my suggested plasma/gravity experiment?

What would it cost gfellow?

[nameless]

How would the auction house know?

Art experts up the wazoo doing appraisals.

Merely extend the phenomenon to its extreme.

As there is, nor can be (according to me, heh) a 'complete vaccuum' ('strings' are posited all over the place, quantum 'information' waves are all that are perceived, and that is as 'something' as there is.
So this 'extending' would be, at most, a gedanken experiment/construct. We cannot even conceive of that which certain words allegedly represent, words like; 'infinite', 'eternal', 'timeless', 'nothingness/void/vacuum'... They are all words; 'beliefs' and 'feelings', not evidential science, not perceived.

I believe the z-pinch/gravimeter lab experiment will confirm that at the moment of electrical discharge, small void/non-space events are occur.

I'm sure that if such a 'thing' as an absolute vacuum is 'found' and verified, I will surely hear about it, but, I'm not going to hold my breath.

You do not wish - even for the sake of argument - to acknowledge that this is may merely be a lower energy state of a space/non-space phenomena?

I don't know what 'non-space' is. I don't think that you mean 'things'...
For the sake of 'argument' I find that I cannot posit the impossible and build some house-of-cards theory upon it. Especially when "truth is (so much) stranger (and more interesitng) than fiction."

Don't know about the other two, but I harbor hopes I will see an laboratory and natural observation of absolute vacuum in my life time.

Hope (a perennial source of suffering) does spring eternal (metaphorically, of course)!
To tell you the truth, I would love to see it too as I'd have to carve a whole new set of grooves in my brain, discard so much and reformulate so much. What a 'trip'! But, again, I'm not holding my breath,

All experiments have to be performed within space, but it does not preclude that one cannot discern the impact upon space by non-space phenomenon

First, there must exist "non-space phenomenon" to do the "impacting" to discern...

Indeed, a devilishly, ticklishly, conundrum. For sure, done here - and thanks for indulging me. Peace. :-)

Thank you, and peace to you.

[gfellow]

Unsupported yes, but proposed. Did you get a chance to view my suggested plasma/gravity experiment?

What would it cost gfellow?

Good question.
I recently had lunch with the head of a plasma physics lab. He told me the Russians might give the best price, as his equipment for producing z-pinch events comes from them. He says one discharge event costs about $10,000 a pop in the US.
The main problem is setting up the experiment. Gravimeters are sensitive machines, and their parts are susceptible to damage by the electromagnetic pulse created by the discharge. A better approach might be to have a laser placed a considerable distance away from the z-pinch event, its beam intersecting close to the z-pinch target.

At the moment of discharge, the beam will either remain unaffected by the z-pinch event, in which case it is a null-result experiment and we can all go home and have a cup of tea, or...

If the event causes a disturbance in the beam towards the z-pinch, the experiment must be repeated with the beam intersecting at distinct distances. If, during each discharge, the beam demonstrates a square of the distance attraction towards the target event, it may be a manifestation of a momentary induced gravitational force - that is, gravity without a corresponding quantity of mass.

The experiment would then need to be repeated and replicated by other labs, but if you can get past the first hurdle, I believe there would be no end to labs willing to replicate the experiment. After all, at that point they would be re-writing some of the basic precepts of nature. Sexy research.

...But no one wants to be the first to jump, because - just like H. C. Oersted's accidental magnet/electrical experiment of the early 1800's - there is no precedent for this kind of effect.
As an academic, you might be risking professional suicide. Consequently, everybody plays it safe and little is learned.
Example: 50 years of controlled fusion research, hundreds of billions of dollars expended with next to nothing to show for it. Just about everything they HAVE discovered was by accident.

Footnote. There might have been an experiment carried out by a Russian group last year, but the outline is such a complex scientific babble with all simplicity stripped away, that I am unable to discern if it is bonafide.

[Arising_uk]

Good question.
I recently had lunch with the head of a plasma physics lab. He told me the Russians might give the best price, as his equipment for producing z-pinch events comes from them. He says one discharge event costs about $10,000 a pop in the US.
The main problem is setting up the experiment. Gravimeters are sensitive machines, and their parts are susceptible to damage by the electromagnetic pulse created by the discharge. A better approach might be to have a laser placed a considerable distance away from the z-pinch event, its beam intersecting close to the z-pinch target.

Okay but does that give an idea of an estimate? How many 'pops' would you expect to iron out the susceptibles before we'd call it a day? If its one pop then $10,000 does not sound impossible to raise in this networked world of those interested in such lunacy.

Much of what you say appears to hang upon this idea that the gravitional relationships of the Solar system are not accountable by the mass of the Sun and the other Solar objects, is this supportable?

[gfellow]

Good question.
I recently had lunch with the head of a plasma physics lab. He told me the Russians might give the best price, as his equipment for producing z-pinch events comes from them. He says one discharge event costs about $10,000 a pop in the US.
The main problem is setting up the experiment. Gravimeters are sensitive machines, and their parts are susceptible to damage by the electromagnetic pulse created by the discharge. A better approach might be to have a laser placed a considerable distance away from the z-pinch event, its beam intersecting close to the z-pinch target.

Okay but does that give an idea of an estimate? How many 'pops' would you expect to iron out the susceptibles before we'd call it a day? If its one pop then $10,000 does not sound impossible to raise in this networked world of those interested in such lunacy.

Much of what you say appears to hang upon this idea that the gravitational relationships of the Solar system are not accountable by the mass of the Sun and the other Solar objects, is this supportable?

I'm not suggesting the Sun doesn't have mass, merely that nature is making efficient use of what there is.

'Pops' - I like it.
The cost is not my realm of expertize, but if I had to put a figure on it, I'd say about $180,000 for a null result. If you don't get a result by the third attempt, scrap the experiment and call the instigator a fool. The facilities plus three pops plus the dismissed technicians and set-up, the above-mentioned figure ought to cover the embarrassment.
A successful run, perhaps $350,000 for the full nine yards?
A full run with ten 'pops' ought to give a clear indication that something is afoot. Ten ought to show a clear square of distance effect, at least enough to raise eyebrows in the science community and assure several replicated experiments.

Know any Eddington-type individuals? Feel like running an experiment?

[Arising_uk]

I'm not suggesting the Sun doesn't have mass, merely that nature is making efficient use of what there is.

I don't think I said that you thought the Sun had no mass but my limited understanding of your video had you saying that the 'gravity' produced by the Suns mass it not enough to account for the relations we see, as such you are proposing a 'plasma gravity' thats produced by the 'upper layers' of the Sun? Please excuse me if this is wrong as I have no Physics so to speak.

'Pops' - I like it.
The cost is not my realm of expertize, but if I had to put a figure on it, I'd say about $180,000 for a null result. If you don't get a result by the third attempt, scrap the experiment and call the instigator a fool. The facilities plus three pops plus the dismissed technicians and set-up, the above-mentioned figure ought to cover the embarrassment.

So you need 18,000 people at $10 a head. There must be 18,000 phil-sci-nerds out there with $10 who'd give it a go if they could understand whats the idea and possible consequences?

A successful run, perhaps $350,000 for the full nine yards?
A full run with ten 'pops' ought to give a clear indication that something is afoot. Ten ought to show a clear square of distance effect, at least enough to raise eyebrows in the science community and assure several replicated experiments.

This is where Science confuses me as you said the $180,000 should show if the effect is real?

Know any Eddington-type individuals? Feel like running an experiment?

Sadly no, but do wonder if the Galaxy Zoo model from Cosmology could be extended to some interweb based mini-venture capital funded 'weird' science projects, that the 'big boys' can't touch due to constraints.

[Wootah]

Let's do it. Ask for funds from government and put in the title 'climate change research'.