Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 8:14 pm**

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 1:08 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
1) Evil comes from man's animal nature. In order to live man must respond to his physical needs. How he does that can be wicked.

And who did create man with animal nature?

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 1:08 pm 2) The Garden of Eden was not a reward nor a punishment for Eve. Outside the Garden of Eden there is good fortune, plenty and ordeals. Good fortune, plenty and ordeals do not mean evil.

It seems to me that you have a good fortune in your life and have never been or seen people in miserable conditions.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 1:08 pm 3) We do not atone for the sins of Adam and Eve. We are only judged for our own sins.

We are. We are living on Earth that is cursed by God because of their sin.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 8:37 pm**

bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 9:45 pm
DPMartin wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 7:04 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
the rest of the story tells you if you read it.

God is not only the Creator but also the Judge therefore the Judge of what is good or evil for His creation and the creatures therein, no exceptions.
So God creates situation in which a person can commit evil so he can judge him? If yes, isn't God the origin of evil?

no, God gave Adam and Eve a Life that requires them to be faithful to God through God's Word. hence God's Word is His agreement or biblically speaking covenant.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 7:04 pm what happened in the garden is Eve made a judgment contrary to God's Judgement and Adam followed.
Eve was naive and was deceived. There was the problem of temptation too, the fruit looked tempting. She has to fight the temptation forever. We all know that it is impossible to ignore a temptation forever.

you're correct about the temptation in that in the flesh it will reacquire over and over, but note Eve didn't know exactly what God said, that she could have easily found out if she didn't know, of which the serpent test for, and, she didn't have to entertain what the serpent said. same today something may come to mind or someone bring an opportunity best left along, but you never have to entertain the thought.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 7:04 pm therefore man now goes by his own judgement of good and evil, but again man's judgement results in death, because God's Judgement is Life so any other judgement wouldn't not be life.

also there is the concept of morals here do to the commandment God spoke to Adam was a covenant, or a agreement. Adam can hang in the garden and live the life Adam received from God, as long as no eat from TOK. note there's no protest on Adam's part mentioned. Adam wasn't made in the garden, Adam was made, then put in the garden.

hence the agreement God made with Adam, and was merciful to let A&E to live the life in and of the flesh as animals do, and they lost the Life (for the record) Jesus, the Son of God, restored to the faithful.

so the reason why for all this is Adam was to be a son of God, possessing God's place in the earth, earth being God's footstool. and in that place they were to execute God's Judgements in the earth.

so the sin in this case is really separation from God's Presence, or the state of it, and that life A&E were left with you have received when you were born into the world, hence the term original sin.
Why we are kept in such a state? We don't keep people responsible for the fault of others.

that's a blind man's excuse. the life you received when you were born into the world you agreed to continue to live didn't you? so you received the life you have been given via your biological parents. but as mentioned before Jesus restored the Life that A&E originally had to the faithful. and you can't say you don't live by your own judgement of what good and evil is. so you're just as guilty as A&E.

hence the opportunity for repentance unto salvation as preached.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 9:05 pm**

If God is all-wise and omniscient choosing to be indifferent then man also will choose to be indifferent when he is wise enough. That means no difference between good and evil whatsoever for wise people as well. Who cares, lets stupid people struggle until the end of time. What is the point of education then?

What you seem to ask is: if God is indifferent or doesn't care, then why should I?

Or mebbe what you're askin' is: if God won't take care of me, why should I?

Either way, the answer is the same: there's no reason at all, why you should care, why you should take care of yourself.

You're a free will: if you plomp yourself down and do nuthin', that's on you, that's your business.

Your life is yours to waste.

If you need God's (or any person's) attention or involvement or example to motivate you: you're in a real pickle.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 10:19 pm**

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:05 pm
If you need God's (or any person's) attention or involvement or example to motivate you: you're in a real pickle.

That sums it up! So why not forget about god, since he sure as hell forgot about everyone, and concentrate on your life. He won't mind if He does exist and couldn't mind if He doesn't. The difference between the two is clearly nil, but then didn't we always want to be independent! What's there for anyone to complain...except about each other or ourselves! Adam blamed Eve for the mess she got him into, and Eve complained about Adam that he let her do it.

Such are the tribulations of independence.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 10:38 pm**

"Away, then, with every concern that is not altogether my concern! You think at least the “good cause” must be my concern? What’s good, what’s bad? Why, I myself am my concern, and I am neither good nor bad. Neither has meaning for me. The divine is God’s concern; the human, man’s. My concern is neither the divine nor the human, not the true, good, just, free, etc., but solely what is mine [das Meinige] , and it is not a general one, but is – unique [einzig], as I am unique. Nothing is more to me than myself!"

- Johann Kaspar 'Maximus' Schmidt

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2022 11:58 pm**

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 10:19 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:05 pm
If you need God's (or any person's) attention or involvement or example to motivate you: you're in a real pickle.
That sums it up! So why not forget about god, since he sure as hell forgot about everyone, and concentrate on your life. He won't mind if He does exist

God is the explanation of why I'm a free will with a right to my life, liberty, and property.

I won't toss Him out.

But, I'm open-minded: show me how agent causation and natural rights can be without God, or, show me I'm not a free will with a right to myself.

Either will do.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 12:02 am**

promethean75 wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 10:38 pm "Away, then, with every concern that is not altogether my concern! You think at least the “good cause” must be my concern? What’s good, what’s bad? Why, I myself am my concern, and I am neither good nor bad. Neither has meaning for me. The divine is God’s concern; the human, man’s. My concern is neither the divine nor the human, not the true, good, just, free, etc., but solely what is mine [das Meinige] , and it is not a general one, but is – unique [einzig], as I am unique. Nothing is more to me than myself!"

- Johann Kaspar 'Maximus' Schmidt

Yep. Saint Max pinned it down.

Too bad you laid with Marx.

Stirner would laugh at you.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 12:05 am**

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 8:07 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 3:45 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil...
Here's my illustrated take on the so-called "problem of evil":

(Note: If the print is too small or too blurry to read, you can see it more clearly if you click on the following link where the images are located on my website - http://theultimateseeds.com/darknessofthewomb.htm)

The bottom line is that there is no such "thing" as Evil as if it were some sort of tangible substance that you can step in and can't get off your shoe, or is often personified in the form of a devil or demons.

No, all evil is (or ever was) is the result of low human consciousness.
_______
That is at best a claim. What if I claim that good is the result of low human consciousness.

Then I would say that you are full of crap (even more than usual).

In my prior post, I suggested that these dunce-capped, bone-headed idiots...

...function at an extremely low level of consciousness which results in a hatred of black people and the committing of heinous acts such as this...

...and this...

So, please show me what exactly is "good" about the low consciousness of racist white people?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 8:07 pm The person who is all-wise has the right to be a good racist.

Apparently, bahman, you and I have a completely different interpretation of what being "all-wise" means.

Stop making ridiculous statements.
_______

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 12:44 am**

With a ku-klux muu-muu
In the back of the truck,
If you ain't born again,
They wanna mess you up, screamin':
'No abortion, no-siree!'
'Life's too precious, can't you see!'
(What's that hangin' from the neighbor's tree?
Why, it looks like 'colored folks' to me --)

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 12:54 am**

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 11:58 pm
Dubious wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 10:19 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 9:05 pm
If you need God's (or any person's) attention or involvement or example to motivate you: you're in a real pickle.
That sums it up! So why not forget about god, since he sure as hell forgot about everyone, and concentrate on your life. He won't mind if He does exist
God is the explanation of why I'm a free will with a right to my life, liberty, and property.

I won't toss Him out.

But, I'm open-minded: show me how agent causation and natural rights can be without God, or, show me I'm not a free will with a right to myself.

Either will do.

No idea what god has to do with free will or your right to life, liberty, property, happiness, or whatever? You were born with whatever free will you had at you disposal or able to practice. Why would there need to be god to give you free will?

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 12:58 am**

No idea what god has to do with free will or your right to life, liberty, property, happiness, or whatever? You were born with whatever free will you had at you disposal or able to practice. Why would there need to be god to give you free will?

Yeah, before I explain, I have to ask (to see if we're on the same page)...

What is free will to you?

What are natural rights to you?

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 1:01 am**

promethean75 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 12:44 am

Frank would laugh at you too.

But Karl, he'd love you.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 1:22 am**

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 12:58 am
No idea what god has to do with free will or your right to life, liberty, property, happiness, or whatever? You were born with whatever free will you had at you disposal or able to practice. Why would there need to be god to give you free will?
Yeah, before I explain, I have to ask (to see if we're on the same page)...

What is free will to you?

What are natural rights to you?

Free will: the will you were born with to move you forward in life. Every conscious creature has a will in the sense of striving for its own well-being. Free will, in effect, is its own agent.

Natural rights: all the rights you have not restricted by humans, i.e.,the right to be guided by your own free will as compared to someone else's. The only restrictions to natural rights are the limitations nature itself imposes.

Free will and natural rights are the opposite sides of the same coin...at least, that's how I see it.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 1:49 am**

Free will: the will you were born with to move you forward in life. Every conscious creature has a will in the sense of striving for its own well-being. Free will, in effect, is its own agent.

Me: I see free will (agent causation) as the capacity to begin, end, and bend causal chains. An impossibility in the deterministic universe we live in, and yet, you and me, we do it all the time. So: cause & effect is wrong (and it doesn't seem to be), or man, in some fashion, is exempted from cause and effect, at least some of the time. This, and certain evidences that mind and brain are not one in the same, led me to consider that mebbe man is dual-aspected or dual-substanced.

Natural rights: all the rights you have not restricted by humans, i.e.,the right to be guided by your own free will as compared to someone else's. The only restrictions to natural rights are the limitations nature itself imposes.

As I see it: natural rights is the deep in the bones intuition a man -- any man, anywhere, any time -- has of his self-possession. He knows his life, liberty, and property are his, full stop. While such an intuition may be simply a brute fact it seems far too clean and direct to just be some adaptive trait. From this, as I call it, ownness, coupled with man's apparent exemption from cause & effect (free will), I surmise a Person, a Creator, a Prime Mover.

Free will and natural rights are the opposite sides of the same coin...at least, that's how I see it.

Yes. Man is free will with a right to himself, to his life, liberty, and property. It's a package deal.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2022 1:00 pm**

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 8:14 pm
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 1:08 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm I create this thread in order to discuss the problem of evil with Immanuel Can. Others also are welcome to participate.

The discussion can be divided into three parts: 1) Origin of Evil, 2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and 3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?
1) Evil comes from man's animal nature. In order to live man must respond to his physical needs. How he does that can be wicked.
And who did create man with animal nature?

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 1:08 pm 2) The Garden of Eden was not a reward nor a punishment for Eve. Outside the Garden of Eden there is good fortune, plenty and ordeals. Good fortune, plenty and ordeals do not mean evil.
It seems to me that you have a good fortune in your life and have never been or seen people in miserable conditions.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 1:08 pm 3) We do not atone for the sins of Adam and Eve. We are only judged for our own sins.
We are. We are living on Earth that is cursed by God because of their sin.

We evolved from animals and have physical needs because of that.

I know that some people have a miserable condition.

The Earth cannot know anything so it would not know that it is cursed. If you think that it is cursed, that doesn't mean you are.

Do you think that we are inflicted with damage inflicted that is an incidental result of Eve's sin?

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