Page 2 of 5
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 4:44 am
by Veritas Aequitas
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
In the context of Morality 'what is good' is 'what is not-evil'.
Evil is related to human acts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity and thus is a threat to the preservation of the human species.
I would prefer to avoid 'right' or 'wrong' in the case of morality as it can be very misleading and do not progress morally.
In morality-proper, one do not choose to do what is right and avoid what is wrong but rather
one develops one own inherent [innate] moral potential so that one will act morally spontaneously without any compulsion nor threat from an external rules, laws, authority.
In this case, one will develop the necessary impulse-controls to inhibit the inherent [innate] evil potential within oneself.
The expectation and enforcement of choosing to do right and not to do wrong is more of politics, customs, culture, etc. It is not morality-proper.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:50 am
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
If you are evil, how would you define correctly. If you are a mix, how would you choose correctly? The road to hell is paved....and all that, as one example.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:54 am
by Iwannaplato
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:44 am
I would prefer to avoid 'right' or 'wrong' in the case of morality as it can be very misleading and do not progress morally.
In morality-proper, one do not choose to do what is right and avoid what is wrong but rather
one develops one own inherent [innate] moral potential so that one will act morally spontaneously without any compulsion nor threat from an external rules, laws, authority.
In this case, one will develop the necessary impulse-controls to inhibit the inherent [innate] evil potential within oneself.
The expectation and enforcement of choosing to do right and not to do wrong is more of politics, customs, culture, etc. It is not morality-proper.
So, avoid the words right and wrong, since these are misleading. But then use the word evil.
What is misleading about right and wrong that is not misleading about evil.
Also, if we are develping impulse controls, how do we act spontanousely. I mean, something in this needs to be qualified. If becoming moral is developing impulse controls, one will end up inhibiting spontenaity.
Further this just seems like an internalized religion?
You have evil impulse and evil potential. Learn to suppress this within yourself.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 2:14 pm
by bahman
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:45 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
So trying to define morality and explicitly not even mention good or bad or right or wrong (although weirdly, still using the word evil for some reason- just none of those others) would be a non-starter then.
Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind. Evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind. Right is what we should choose and do whether is good or evil. And wrong is what we should avoid choosing and doing whether it is good or evil.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 2:24 pm
by bahman
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:44 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
In the context of Morality 'what is good' is 'what is not-evil'.
Evil is related to human acts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity and thus is a threat to the preservation of the human species.
I would prefer to avoid 'right' or 'wrong' in the case of morality as it can be very misleading and do not progress morally.
In morality-proper, one do not choose to do what is right and avoid what is wrong but rather
one develops one own inherent [innate] moral potential so that one will act morally spontaneously without any compulsion nor threat from an external rules, laws, authority.
In this case, one will develop the necessary impulse-controls to inhibit the inherent [innate] evil potential within oneself.
The expectation and enforcement of choosing to do right and not to do wrong is more of politics, customs, culture, etc. It is not morality-proper.
I disagree with your definitions. Please see my previous response to FD.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 2:31 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 11:50 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
If you are evil, how would you define correctly. If you are a mix, how would you choose correctly? The road to hell is paved....and all that, as one example.
Good and evil are states of mind. Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind and evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 3:19 pm
by FlashDangerpants
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:14 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:45 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
So trying to define morality and explicitly not even mention good or bad or right or wrong (although weirdly, still using the word evil for some reason- just none of those others) would be a non-starter then.
Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind. Evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind. Right is what we should choose and do whether is good or evil. And wrong is what we should avoid choosing and doing whether it is good or evil.
That's sort of wishy washy nonsense isn't it? Dropping your trousers and tea-bagging a puppy is wrong because it's a bad thing to do, it's not a state of suffering, and "confusion of mind" doesn't mean really mean anything.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 3:23 pm
by bahman
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:19 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:14 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:45 am
So trying to define morality and explicitly not even mention good or bad or right or wrong (although weirdly, still using the word evil for some reason- just none of those others) would be a non-starter then.
Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind. Evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind. Right is what we should choose and do whether is good or evil. And wrong is what we should avoid choosing and doing whether it is good or evil.
That's sort of wishy washy nonsense isn't it? Dropping your trousers and tea-bagging a puppy is wrong because it's a bad thing to do, it's not a state of suffering, and "confusion of mind" doesn't mean really mean anything.
No. How do you define good and evil?
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 4:22 pm
by FlashDangerpants
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:23 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:19 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:14 pm
Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind. Evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind. Right is what we should choose and do whether is good or evil. And wrong is what we should avoid choosing and doing whether it is good or evil.
That's sort of wishy washy nonsense isn't it? Dropping your trousers and tea-bagging a puppy is wrong because it's a bad thing to do, it's not a state of suffering, and "confusion of mind" doesn't mean really mean anything.
No. How do you define good and evil?
That's a bit of a problem with people on this forum, they keep trying to get these perfect little definitions of extremely nebulous things. That's how Vegetable Ambulance got into this whole problem he has. You will never get a complete definition of evil or of morality, not one that includes everything it needs to but nothing it should not include.
VA tries to solve this problem with a stupid and useless definition of morality that can't cope with good and bad, then he ends up having to tell everyone else in the world that they don't know what morality-proper is. Learn from his mistake is my advice.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 4:27 pm
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:31 pm
Good and evil are states of mind. Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind and evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind.
There seem to be people who take pleasure and are quite clear in their minds while being sadistic or mean or what most people call immoral.
But my point was that to the evil person, what we consider evil may appear good.
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:40 pm
by DPMartin
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:36 am
Morality is what I had been and mentioned in the OP plus what proposed above in the OP.
Point is morality for peace has to effected at the level of the neurons in the brain.
that is not a part of human nature which is merely animal nature taken to the next level with more capabilities.
and i could be wrong but it seems you watch the news to much
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:45 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 11:50 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
If you are evil, how would you define correctly.
Define what?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 11:50 am
If you are a mix, how would you choose correctly? The road to hell is paved....and all that, as one example.
It doesn't really matter.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:16 pm
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 6:45 pm
Define what?
Define what is evil or good? You gave a heuristic that we must define good and evil and then do right. I can't see how that heuristic can possibly work better than chance. Since evil people, or people labelled evil, tend not to define either their actions or intentions as evil. So, they will define good based on their own proclivicities, road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.
It doesn't really matter.
What doesn't matter?
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:36 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:16 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 6:45 pm
Define what?
Define what is evil or good? You gave a heuristic that we must define good and evil and then do right. I can't see how that heuristic can possibly work better than chance. Since evil people, or people labelled evil, tend not to define either their actions or intentions as evil. So, they will define good based on their own proclivicities, road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.
I defined good as a state of pleasure and evil as a state of suffering. Please note that I define good or evil as a state, not as an act so the pleasure or suffering in a situation depends on whether the person is good or evil. For example, an evil person enjoys pain so that is good to him.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:43 pm
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:36 pm
I defined good as a state of pleasure and evil as a state of suffering. Please note that I define good or evil as a state, not as an act so the pleasure or suffering in a situation depends on whether the person is good or evil. For example, an evil person enjoys pain so that is good to him.
so that evil person will follow your heuristic to do more evil. And his or her pleasure will confirm, via your suggestion, that he or she is on the good track.