Philosophy Now Forum

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 2:41 am

1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.

1- I am not proving anything, we cannot prove neither Determinism or Random. I am just explaining what determinism is for me.


Tell me.... what is Freewill?

I think Freewill is just a concept that the people who say it dont understand that he is talking about Determinism or Random in the deeper.

So, can you try to explain what Freewill is and we can see if you are describing really anything?....

Because this:

Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.

doesnt make sense to me.

But if you want to learn, follow me, ok?

Just answer my questions.


Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?


If yes, then, that first form, that first thing, was a "choice" ?

Or the Freewill is something that happens later in the evolution of the universe?


First that.

1. In discussing a phenomenon we prove it exists as discussion is pointing, pointing is existence.

2. Freewill is the emergence of being as freedom is conducive to action and action is being.

3. The origin of everything is everything thus is self-referential, as self-referential there is no comparison thus origins are in nothing. The universe, relative to time and space (which is the universe), is always originating and as such the first cause is ever present as being occurs through being but this being is nothing as being through being is indefinite.

4. Free will is the ability to act, being through being is pure action.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:12 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:09 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 11:36 pm

Because in observing both individually a distinction is made, distinction is opposition.

BUT, NO CONTRADICTION.

So, AGAIN, WHY ASSUME there was some contradiction here?

Distinction is separation as it is contrast, to have distinction is to have contradiction.

WHY do you think or BELIEVE that absolutely ALL distinction IS A CONTRADICTION?

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 2:41 am

1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.

1- I am not proving anything, we cannot prove neither Determinism or Random. I am just explaining what determinism is for me.


Tell me.... what is Freewill?

I think Freewill is just a concept that the people who say it dont understand that he is talking about Determinism or Random in the deeper.

So, can you try to explain what Freewill is and we can see if you are describing really anything?....

Because this:

Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.

doesnt make sense to me.

But if you want to learn, follow me, ok?

Just answer my questions.


Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?


If yes, then, that first form, that first thing, was a "choice" ?

Or the Freewill is something that happens later in the evolution of the universe?


First that.

Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:11 pm

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 2:41 am

1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.

1- I am not proving anything, we cannot prove neither Determinism or Random. I am just explaining what determinism is for me.


Tell me.... what is Freewill?

I think Freewill is just a concept that the people who say it dont understand that he is talking about Determinism or Random in the deeper.

So, can you try to explain what Freewill is and we can see if you are describing really anything?....

Because this:

Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.

doesnt make sense to me.

But if you want to learn, follow me, ok?

Just answer my questions.


Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?


If yes, then, that first form, that first thing, was a "choice" ?

Or the Freewill is something that happens later in the evolution of the universe?


First that.

Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?

Yes.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:17 am

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 2:41 am

1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.

1- I am not proving anything, we cannot prove neither Determinism or Random. I am just explaining what determinism is for me.


Tell me.... what is Freewill?

I think Freewill is just a concept that the people who say it dont understand that he is talking about Determinism or Random in the deeper.

So, can you try to explain what Freewill is and we can see if you are describing really anything?....

Because this:

Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.

doesnt make sense to me.

But if you want to learn, follow me, ok?

Just answer my questions.


Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?


If yes, then, that first form, that first thing, was a "choice" ?

Or the Freewill is something that happens later in the evolution of the universe?


First that.

1. In discussing a phenomenon we prove it exists as discussion is pointing, pointing is existence.

2. Freewill is the emergence of being as freedom is conducive to action and action is being.

3. The origin of everything is everything thus is self-referential, as self-referential there is no comparison thus origins are in nothing. The universe, relative to time and space (which is the universe), is always originating and as such the first cause is ever present as being occurs through being but this being is nothing as being through being is indefinite.

4. Free will is the ability to act, being through being is pure action.

1- Of course. "Superman" exists. But we are talking about what is that. Exists like imagination or what? The same with all concepts.

2- What is freedom? Is another action. So you are saying that action conduce to action and action is being. That is not saying nothing.

3- Ok.

4- But that happens if you dont believe in free will too.


What means "pure action" ?



Ok, you believe Freewill is an emergence. So, the universe has followed the laws of physics until one point where it violated them and a being do the first "pure action" ?


Is that?

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:08 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:12 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:09 am

BUT, NO CONTRADICTION.

So, AGAIN, WHY ASSUME there was some contradiction here?

Distinction is separation as it is contrast, to have distinction is to have contradiction.

WHY do you think or BELIEVE that absolutely ALL distinction IS A CONTRADICTION?

Because distinction is necessitated by contrast.

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 2:35 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:17 am

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 2:41 am

1- I am not proving anything, we cannot prove neither Determinism or Random. I am just explaining what determinism is for me.


Tell me.... what is Freewill?

I think Freewill is just a concept that the people who say it dont understand that he is talking about Determinism or Random in the deeper.

So, can you try to explain what Freewill is and we can see if you are describing really anything?....

Because this:



doesnt make sense to me.

But if you want to learn, follow me, ok?

Just answer my questions.


Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?


If yes, then, that first form, that first thing, was a "choice" ?

Or the Freewill is something that happens later in the evolution of the universe?


First that.

1. In discussing a phenomenon we prove it exists as discussion is pointing, pointing is existence.

2. Freewill is the emergence of being as freedom is conducive to action and action is being.

3. The origin of everything is everything thus is self-referential, as self-referential there is no comparison thus origins are in nothing. The universe, relative to time and space (which is the universe), is always originating and as such the first cause is ever present as being occurs through being but this being is nothing as being through being is indefinite.

4. Free will is the ability to act, being through being is pure action.

1- Of course. "Superman" exists. But we are talking about what is that. Exists like imagination or what? The same with all concepts.

2- What is freedom? Is another action. So you are saying that action conduce to action and action is being. That is not saying nothing.

3- Ok.

4- But that happens if you dont believe in free will too.


What means "pure action" ?



Ok, you believe Freewill is an emergence. So, the universe has followed the laws of physics until one point where it violated them and a being do the first "pure action" ?


Is that?

1. Concepts form the empirical, ie the example of blueprints. The empirical forms concepts, ie a horn and a horse form a unicorn.
2. That which exists acts. That which acts is free. Freedom is action.
3. To believe in determinism is to freely believe in it as this belief is an action and action is freedom.
4. If all is a result of matter then a contradictory conversation is a result of matter as well therefore necessitating matter results in contradiction.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:58 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:08 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 12:12 am

Distinction is separation as it is contrast, to have distinction is to have contradiction.

WHY do you think or BELIEVE that absolutely ALL distinction IS A CONTRADICTION?

Because distinction is necessitated by contrast.

But a 'contrast' is NOT necessarily a 'contradiction' at all, OBVIOUSLY.

4. If all is a result of matter then a contradictory conversation is a result of matter as well therefore necessitating matter results in contradiction.

And that with that?

The matter forms humans that say truth and humans that say lies. That only mean that this matter is not too order still.

Is not a contradiction.

2. That which exists acts. That which acts is free. Freedom is action.
3. To believe in determinism is to freely believe in it as this belief is an action and action is freedom.

You are starting with the believe of freedom and then conclude freedom. That is not ok.


Tell me, what is the cause from your election of eat chocolate instead of icecream?


Just answer that.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 10:52 pm Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.

Indeed. The will is caused by the determination of the individual agent.
The will is fuelled by volition and desire and informed by experience.
Thankfully it is not "free" of these determining factors, but can be free from the immediate pressure of external causalities such as compulsion and oppression of others.
And it is by these ways that our will can be done in the way that we are determined to want.

I think that free will is only possible for an unconditional origin of events.

Since nothing is ever truly unconditional, there can be no free will in the world.

However, I am just this my own free will.
What else could I ever be?
A free will that is impossible, is an illusion...

So that truly I am not.
I exist, but I am not.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:48 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:58 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 1:08 pm

WHY do you think or BELIEVE that absolutely ALL distinction IS A CONTRADICTION?

Because distinction is necessitated by contrast.

But a 'contrast' is NOT necessarily a 'contradiction' at all, OBVIOUSLY.

A contrast points to difference, difference points to separation.

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:05 pm

4. If all is a result of matter then a contradictory conversation is a result of matter as well therefore necessitating matter results in contradiction.

And that with that?

The matter forms humans that say truth and humans that say lies. That only mean that this matter is not too order still.

Is not a contradiction.

2. That which exists acts. That which acts is free. Freedom is action.
3. To believe in determinism is to freely believe in it as this belief is an action and action is freedom.

You are starting with the believe of freedom and then conclude freedom. That is not ok.


Tell me, what is the cause from your election of eat chocolate instead of icecream?


Just answer that.

1. From the premise of matter being the foundation of things this necessitates matter results in contradiction and from that contradiction anything goes.

2. No, belief is an action and actions are free considering freedom is necessary for action to occur. Because we believe we are free.

3. As to the chocolate vs ice cream one is chosen out of the belief one is more satisfying than the other.

bobmax wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:44 am I think that free will is only possible for an unconditional origin of events.

Since nothing is ever truly unconditional, there can be no free will in the world.

However, I am just this my own free will.
What else could I ever be?
A free will that is impossible, is an illusion...

So that truly I am not.
I exist, but I am not.

Conditions dependent upon further condition results in there only being conditions and as such conditions cease to have form and result in no-thing because they have no comparison. This "no-thingness" of conditions necessitates the will as dependent upon conditions in turn being free.

Conditions dependent upon further condition results in there only being conditions and as such conditions cease to have form and result in no-thing because they have no comparison. This "no-thingness" of conditions necessitates the will as dependent upon conditions in turn being free.

i read this from you in others comments, there is nonsense. Just make the premise and see if you are not arguing wrong.

From the premise of matter being the foundation of things this necessitates matter results in contradiction and from that contradiction anything goes.

But, why?

All this matter, following the laws of physics, have evolve in relations that make what we call "imagination", where we "think" and say things about the matter itself.

One of that thinking are for example "the human body is following the laws of physics in relationship with the enviroment".

And another kind of thinking are for example "the human body is NOT following the laws of physics in relationship with the enviroment".

What is the problem with that?


The matter creates true thinking and false thinking, in the same way it creates hot and cold, etc.


I think you are saying that "if the matter evolve to the thinking of that we are NOT following the laws of physics, then that is what ocurrs".

That nonsense.


But I dont care too much with that, you will learn if you still answer my questions in the way you are doing it.

As to the chocolate vs ice cream one is chosen out of the belief one is more satisfying than the other.

And why you have that belief and not other belief?

Where that belief came from?


I dont going to ask you why why why, because it will take too much time. You know what I am doing.


So, think about it.... if you answer all the why, you will have reach a limit where you have 3 options:

1- You will say that there is always a previous cause.

2- You found that there are no first cause.

3- You found that there is a first cause to the decision of ice cream instead of chocolate.




If you believe in 1, then, your decisión is not defined, you cannot call freewill to that.

If you believe in 2, then, your decisión is complete random, you cannot call freewill to that. Because it may be icecream or chocolate, always, just random.


I need to think you are better than that, so, I will think that you believe in 3.


Then, you must to define what is that "first cause".


And that is the interesting part.... because you have had do that....


You know what is the "first cause".... is God...


A God that is still here, beyond the forms, always, and is the foundation of all the matter.


But... if you really really really understand God, you know that is formless.


So, tell me, if you push someone uniformily in the back for a minute, has the person moved to the right or the left? NO.


God is only pushing forward, not to the right or the left.


Only when you think God as a form.... is where you think of God as something that can "decide", something that can be "free".


So, God is the first cause, but God cannot make you decide ice cream or chocolate. You cannot call freewill to that.