Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:27 pm That question is mainly for Immanuel Can, but anyone can answer it.

Radiating and resonating in love is a natural state that does not require or depend on anyone or anything in particular. It can spring forth with great power and immensity. It does not require belief in a god or god-story. Rather, it would seem that the idea of a god was enhanced into taking credit for that natural state!

As if you need a god to experience it -- which you don't! As if a god is the source of it -- which it's not! Human beings may and do attribute such love to all kinds of things... but it's free and natural.

On this Earth stage of noisy productions, such love isn't typically part of the script. It may be easier to access when alone -- which is maybe why sages go off into caves to better connect with that natural vibration. Sufi teachings say that any man can go off to live in a cave to become enlightened, but the true master is the one who can practice it in the middle of a crowded street.

I didn't experience it in my prior relationships to the degree that I felt capable of doing myself. Like you, while single, I did experience it very profoundly! That's when I became aware that everything is perfect and that it doesn't need to be any particular way. Whatever this is... wherever we are... it's a dance. And I think that realization took the pressure off (for me). The potential is wide open and ever-present.

I've now been living in a relationship for a year with a man who is very loving, kind, and open -- and we both wonder about this dream that we've come together in. It appears that we are practicing greater potential together and learning how to become the best of ourselves, while navigating the wild world of current civilization. We have each had moments of extraordinary love arise for each other at varying times (more than just 'relationship love') -- and it's very sweet to recognize and acknowledge that together. It demonstrates (again) how natural and accessible such love can be -- we just have to move beyond the noise of the world and the noise in our head... to see what we are naturally part of.

I think feeling love on your own is essential. Then to meet another, who is doing that too, can begin an interesting journey of both allowing and supporting each other to be and experience ever-unfolding potential in this world we live in (if both are committed to that). Travelling life's road together and feeling the comfort, support, and empowerment from which to spring forth and manifest one's own 'artwork' is a gift. Of course it requires responsibility and honesty and loving patience on all sides to navigate individual and collective fields and forests. And, surprisingly, it has occurred for me with someone I wouldn't have expected: a yoga-practicing Republican who supported Trump!

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:24 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:41 am ...temporally forgetting that we are already and always the love we crave.

I think we all know that that's not true.

Witney Houston may have sung, "Learning to love myself/ It was the greatest love of all." But she died of a cocaine overdose. Clearly, there were things in her life that were still very much lacking. What she was singing, she didn't really experience.

And I think we know we're lying to ourselves when we say, "It's enough that I love myself." It's not. It's just a thing we say when we've despaired of finding relationship outside of ourselves, and have tried to wrap ourselves in blanket of self-love. But that blanket's too short and too narrow, and the cold winds still get to us.

And if, for even one second, we actually believed we could find the kind of relationship outside of ourselves that we long for, we'd drop that nonsense like a hot potato and grab for the real thing. We know that, too.

I do not agree with anything you have said here...sorry to say.

I think you actually do. Were you not just lamenting that relationships hitherto were not what you would wish? Why mention it, if you've already found rapture in your own arms?

Self-love has everything to do with ''awakening''

The people I have met who have the most self-love are the narcissists. They're not good people, and I haven't noted them as being particularly "awake." Rather, they seem to move in a stupor of self-absorption, blissfully uncaring of what anybody else is experiencing as a result of their actions.

I'm not saying that's you: I'm saying that I don't find that self-love makes people very nice.

In my opinion, we cannot love another person until we have first learnt to love ourself.

We all do love ourselves, automatically. When we get up in the morning, it's our own teeth we brush and our own bodies we wash. A person who genuinely didn't love herself wouldn't bother. In fact, if we really didn't love ourselves, we wouldn't bother to think about ourselves at all. But as a matter of fact, even people who claim to hate themselves are actually self-absorbed; and the reason they are unhappy is because, in spite of all, they have this obsessive belief that they deserve better than they got.

Low-self-image is quite different from actually being humble and self-effacing. The truth is that low-self-image is merely another way of having one's self-image continually before one. It's self-absorption, again.

That was Witney's mistake. She thought she had achieved something merely by indulging her own self-admiration.

Where is she now?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:51 pm ...you have no understanding of nondual self.

Yeah, I do. It's an old song. I just reject it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:08 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:51 pm ...you have no understanding of nondual self.

Yeah, I do. It's an old song. I just reject it.

I.C. doesn't entertain old songs.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:11 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:08 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:51 pm ...you have no understanding of nondual self.

Yeah, I do. It's an old song. I just reject it.

I.C. doesn't entertain old songs.

No, but sometimes they entertain me.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:36 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:11 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:08 pm
Yeah, I do. It's an old song. I just reject it.

I.C. doesn't entertain old songs.

No, but sometimes they entertain me.

Obviously.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:06 pm I think you actually do.

I really really think not, sorry to say, I reject your response. It did not resonate with my view at all. Your pointer argument had no relation or anything to do with what I was taking about. Your response was way off mark, yes, it really was. Just accept it.

Self-love has everything to do with ''awakening''

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:06 pmThe people I have met who have the most self-love are the narcissists. They're not good people, and I haven't noted them as being particularly "awake." Rather, they seem to move in a stupor of self-absorption, blissfully uncaring of what anybody else is experiencing as a result of their actions.

I absolutely disagree with that. And to be honest, this says more about you than the issue I had in mind.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:06 pmI'm not saying that's you: I'm saying that I don't find that self-love makes people very nice.

In a subtle, passive aggressive sort of way, what you've said here, was aimed at me. Truth is, You don't know anyone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

In my opinion, we cannot love another person until we have first learnt to love ourself.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:06 pmWe all do love ourselves, automatically. When we get up in the morning, it's our own teeth we brush and our own bodies we wash. A person who genuinely didn't love herself wouldn't bother. In fact, if we really didn't love ourselves, we wouldn't bother to think about ourselves at all. But as a matter of fact, even people who claim to hate themselves are actually self-absorbed; and the reason they are unhappy is because, in spite of all, they have this obsessive belief that they deserve better than they got.

Low-self-image is quite different from actually being humble and self-effacing. The truth is that low-self-image is merely another way of having one's self-image continually before one. It's self-absorption, again.

That was Witney's mistake. She thought she had achieved something merely by indulging her own self-admiration.

Where is she now?

Again, I absolutely disagree with your self bias summary. I'm not talking about the general care of health and well being of the person, who can be bothered to drag their sorry arse out of bed in the morning. I'm talking about something completely different, I'm talking about a nondual self-realisation, that you reject, simply because you are too shallow to go that deep. Sorry but your absolutely clueless as usual.

But then what do you expect from one who lusts after an invisible 2000 year old jewish zombie.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:08 pm I just reject it.

Your entitled, over privileged, luxurious rejection wouldn't have been possible, had your precious savior not sacrificed his life, so that you didn't have to.

SELF-LESS is not mans nature. .....get it?

And yet, you do not reject the 2000 year old jewish zombie who's only existence is a belief inside your head. The irony is hilarious.


Sorry, but you are clueless, just own it.

Just keep entertaining yourself with your BS delusions...because

sometimes they entertain me.

.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 pm
Radiating and resonating in love is a natural state that does not require or depend on anyone or anything in particular.

I agree

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 pm It can spring forth with great power and immensity. It does not require belief in a god or god-story. Rather, it would seem that the idea of a god was enhanced into taking credit for that natural state!

Beautiful, well said, I agree.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 pmAs if you need a god to experience it -- which you don't! As if a god is the source of it -- which it's not! Human beings may and do attribute such love to all kinds of things... but it's free and natural.

I agree.
God, for me, is just another word for Love, but then, that's an issue that is of my own personal understanding, I'm not saying my self bias, is an absolute truth.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 pmOn this Earth stage of noisy productions, such love isn't typically part of the script. It may be easier to access when alone -- which is maybe why sages go off into caves to better connect with that natural vibration. Sufi teachings say that any man can go off to live in a cave to become enlightened, but the true master is the one who can practice it in the middle of a crowded street.

Well said. I Absolutely agree. I've always known you and I were on the same page.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 pmI didn't experience it in my prior relationships to the degree that I felt capable of doing myself. Like you, while single, I did experience it very profoundly! That's when I became aware that everything is perfect and that it doesn't need to be any particular way. Whatever this is... wherever we are... it's a dance. And I think that realization took the pressure off (for me). The potential is wide open and ever-present.

I agree.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 pmI've now been living in a relationship for a year with a man who is very loving, kind, and open -- and we both wonder about this dream that we've come together in. It appears that we are practicing greater potential together and learning how to become the best of ourselves, while navigating the wild world of current civilization. We have each had moments of extraordinary love arise for each other at varying times (more than just 'relationship love') -- and it's very sweet to recognize and acknowledge that together. It demonstrates (again) how natural and accessible such love can be -- we just have to move beyond the noise of the world and the noise in our head... to see what we are naturally part of.

I'm very happy for you both. I've got this kind of relationship with a partner as well, I've mentioned this partner to you before on another thread.
We both choose to live in our own houses. We both prefer the bliss of solitude. It's not unique... we do not indulge in sex because we've chosen to be in a much higher place with each other.

We are not married.

I was previously married for 18 years with the father of my children, I would have stayed with him forever, but he left. He did not reciprocate the forever love I had for him.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 pmI think feeling love on your own is essential. Then to meet another, who is doing that too, can begin an interesting journey of both allowing and supporting each other to be and experience ever-unfolding potential in this world we live in (if both are committed to that). Travelling life's road together and feeling the comfort, support, and empowerment from which to spring forth and manifest one's own 'artwork' is a gift. Of course it requires responsibility and honesty and loving patience on all sides to navigate individual and collective fields and forests. And, surprisingly, it has occurred for me with someone I wouldn't have expected: a yoga-practicing Republican who supported Trump!

I agree.

My partner and I used to travel to India. Just to sit on a beach staring into the ocean all day. That's all we'd do for the entire trip, then we'd come home. But we haven't been anywhere overseas lately, not since the pandemic.

.

It only takes one of the two to exist, but the one needs pristine Equanimity, which is the father of Objectivity, which is the father of Science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bQnxlHZsjY

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:26 am In a subtle, passive aggressive sort of way, what you've said here, was aimed at me.

No, you're assuming that, perhaps; but it wasn't true. I was only speaking of the view you had expressed, not of your person.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:00 am I'm very happy for you both.

Thank you.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:00 amI've got this kind of relationship with a partner as well, I've mentioned this partner to you before on another thread. We both choose to live in our own houses. We both prefer the bliss of solitude.

Perhaps I commented previously: That sounds like a real gift! I sometimes fantasized about having such an arrangement while I was single. It seemed like it would be the best of both worlds.

At this time, I think I'm learning how to be in a close relationship without feeling trapped or slowed down by it. Also, how to dance with someone who is different in ways that I never anticipated. Most of all, it's a surprise to discover that what I actually needed is different than what I thought I needed. We don't always arrive where we thought we were going. It's a fascinating journey, and I have a lot of gratitude for it.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:00 am My partner and I used to travel to India. Just to sit on a beach staring into the ocean all day. That's all we'd do for the entire trip, then we'd come home. But we haven't been anywhere overseas lately, not since the pandemic.

Sounds like that was wonderful.

The Covid pandemic has derailed and brought a screeching halt to a lot of things. I'm wondering what kind of a world we'll have to navigate going forward. More than ever, it seems important to be self-sufficient, well-balanced, and dance through it with as much love and joy as possible.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:37 am SELF-LESS is not mans nature.

Oh, believe me, I know that. That's one of the things we need to be saved from...our selfishness. Left to human nature, the "self" becomes a tyrant demanding satisfaction of every desire, which is a thing not possible in this world, and ruins happiness. Somebody (I forget who) compared the bloated self to a "giant, squalling baby" demanding its own all the time. That's sort of how it goes: when we let the self rule, we find we become its slave; and it cannot be satisfied.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:37 am Can the kind of unconditional Love that is God exist for the man and woman relationship?

What is "unconditional love" from an entity that gave us at least 10 commandments?

Are they not CONDITIONS?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:30 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:37 am Can the kind of unconditional Love that is God exist for the man and woman relationship?

What is "unconditional love" from an entity that gave us at least 10 commandments?

Are they not CONDITIONS?

Good point. This supposed god has LOTS of conditions. Perhaps we will 'still be loved' when we're cast into oblivion. Whoopee!