Philosophy Now Forum

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:29 am What I have discovered lately, is that when I am willing to accept everything as already perfect, I experience no fear of anything. But as soon as I start messing with the perfection, I see that it is only I who is turning the perfection into an imperfect mess.

Agreed!

To me it seems to be the difference between seeing 'behind the veil' of life or being swept up in the show on this stage. That sense of seeing the perfection behind the veil of life stays with me even as I return to the stage. So I don't take the stage as seriously, nor do I fear its end. This vast manifestation and its potential are fantastic -- might as well try to embrace loving, exploring, wrestling, and playing with it, as much as possible. Manmade rules and beliefs aren't applicable beyond it: they are deficient in defining vast and creative perfection.

Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

Those who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You can't have both and, unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

Actually you can live according to your second paragraph and seek spiritual satisfaction. In fact, spiritual satisfaction will improve your connection to the world and people that you relate to.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:29 am What I have discovered lately, is that when I am willing to accept everything as already perfect, I experience no fear of anything. But as soon as I start messing with the perfection, I see that it is only I who is turning the perfection into an imperfect mess.

Agreed!

To me it seems to be the difference between seeing 'behind the veil' of life or being swept up in the show on this stage.

And looking at and judging "others" is just another example of being "swept up in the show".

Also, why not just remain "behind the veil" instead of 'trying to' be "in the show", anyway?

But what can be CLEARLY SEEN and OBSERVED here, from "behind the veil" is that ALL of 'you' have DIFFERENT ways of expressing the EXACT SAME Thing.

And the reason WHY 'you' ALL do this is VERY OBVIOUS, from my perspective, or from "behind the veil".

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm That sense of seeing the perfection behind the veil of life stays with me even as I return to the stage.

LOL Talk about one 'trying' ever so hard to fool "them self".

This one is continually looking at and judging "others" who say that they know what thee truth is, YET here is ANOTHER example of when this one is stating the EXACT SAME thing, just in different words and terms.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm So I don't take the stage as seriously, nor do I fear its end.

Well this appears VERY CONTRADICTORY as this one is one of the first to 'take seriously', and 'take aim', when "another" says that they know 'the perfection'.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm This vast manifestation and its potential are fantastic -- might as well try to embrace loving, exploring, wrestling, and playing with it, as much as possible.

And WHEN, and IF, this one learns WHY ALL of 'you', human beings, think and do what you do, then they will BEGIN to actually START embracing what is said here. But, until then, it will really remain disliking some of what some "others" do, and continue with its own judging and ridiculing ways of "them".

Also, I suggest just doing, instead of just trying.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm Manmade rules and beliefs aren't applicable beyond it: they are deficient in defining vast and creative perfection.

As can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN here.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

How can you possibly know the experience and awareness of another? And how can you be so arrogant as to think you do -- or to think that your experience/awareness reveals all valid potential?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmThose who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You have no idea. I have manifested a highly successful life in the "real world", through all of the things you imagine that I don't know/do. Your black-and-white thinking fail again.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmYou can't have both

You can have even more. You don't seem able to comprehend such a thing because it is at odds with your very dualistic mindset: This or that is all there is... and the rest does not exist! Apparently you're comforted and feel validated by such thinking. But it's absurd that anything in this Universe would be so limited and small in potential and scope... and contingent on your perception.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

You speak of that which you have no clue, while demonstrating your rigidity at the same time. Thanks for the demonstration of the limits and failures of your thinking.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:29 am What I have discovered lately, is that when I am willing to accept everything as already perfect, I experience no fear of anything. But as soon as I start messing with the perfection, I see that it is only I who is turning the perfection into an imperfect mess.

Agreed!

To me it seems to be the difference between seeing 'behind the veil' of life or being swept up in the show on this stage. That sense of seeing the perfection behind the veil of life stays with me even as I return to the stage. So I don't take the stage as seriously, nor do I fear its end. This vast manifestation and its potential are fantastic -- might as well try to embrace loving, exploring, wrestling, and playing with it, as much as possible. Manmade rules and beliefs aren't applicable beyond it: they are deficient in defining vast and creative perfection.

Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy.

Here is ANOTHER example of ANOTHER DIFFERENT ways of expressing the EXACT SAME Thing. But, and again, putting their own DIFFERENT 'take' on 'It', as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN, especially, in this one's next line.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

See, EVERY one of these people, in the days when this was written, expressed things from their own personal view as though that view was thee One and ONLY true, right, and correct view.

The obvious ABSURDITY of this speaks for itself, and of which can be SEEN, VERY CLEARLY.

These people actually BELIEVED that "their own personal view" was thee most accurate and correct view without ever once realizing WHY those views are distinctly DIFFERENT.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Those who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You come across as though you KNOW what the 'real world' actually is, you know, the one that 'you actually exist in'. But it is obvious that you do NOT know. Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise.

What 'challenges' and 'difficulties' do you perceive there is in the 'real world?

And, what is a 'life worth living', to you?

What exactly is a life of; 'real adventure', 'real achievement', and 'real fulfillment'? And, could ANY of what your views of these things be different to what thee ACTUAL real Truth IS, or are your views are the real and ONLY true views?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm You can't have both and, unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

What have you actually achieved or 'created' of 'real value'?

And, has your 'real life' been completed and is the sum of 'your life' to satisfaction?

If yes, then HOW exactly?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:35 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

How can you possibly know the experience and awareness of another?

VERY EASILY and VERY SIMPLY, when, and if, they share 'it'.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:35 pm And how can you be so arrogant as to think you do -- or to think that your experience/awareness reveals all valid potential?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmThose who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You have no idea. I have manifested a highly successful life in the "real world", through all of the things you imagine that I don't know/do. Your black-and-white thinking fail again.

What do 'you', people, in the days when this is being written, judge 'your' "highly successful life" on, exactly?

What do 'you' relate "success" with, exactly?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:35 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmYou can't have both

You can have even more. You don't seem able to comprehend such a thing because it is at odds with your very dualistic mindset: This or that is all there is... and the rest does not exist! Apparently you're comforted and feel validated by such thinking. But it's absurd that anything in this Universe would be so limited and small in potential and scope... and contingent on your perception.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

You speak of that which you have no clue, while demonstrating your rigidity at the same time. Thanks for the demonstration of the limits and failures of your thinking.

WHY do so many of 'you', people, claim the "other" has 'no clue' BEFORE you even challenge "them" on what they claim or ask "them" for clarification on what they say?

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:19 pm Actually you can live according to your second paragraph and seek spiritual satisfaction. In fact, spiritual satisfaction will improve your connection to the world and people that you relate to.

Well, if that satisfies you, as the Aussies say, "good on ya." I prefer real satisfaction in this very real world.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:20 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm
Agreed!

To me it seems to be the difference between seeing 'behind the veil' of life or being swept up in the show on this stage. That sense of seeing the perfection behind the veil of life stays with me even as I return to the stage. So I don't take the stage as seriously, nor do I fear its end. This vast manifestation and its potential are fantastic -- might as well try to embrace loving, exploring, wrestling, and playing with it, as much as possible. Manmade rules and beliefs aren't applicable beyond it: they are deficient in defining vast and creative perfection.

Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy.

Here is ANOTHER example of ANOTHER DIFFERENT ways of expressing the EXACT SAME Thing. But, and again, putting their own DIFFERENT 'take' on 'It', as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN, especially, in this one's next line.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

See, EVERY one of these people, in the days when this was written, expressed things from their own personal view as though that view was thee One and ONLY true, right, and correct view.

The obvious ABSURDITY of this speaks for itself, and of which can be SEEN, VERY CLEARLY.

These people actually BELIEVED that "their own personal view" was thee most accurate and correct view without ever once realizing WHY those views are distinctly DIFFERENT.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Those who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You come across as though you KNOW what the 'real world' actually is, you know, the one that 'you actually exist in'. But it is obvious that you do NOT know. Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise.

I do. Anyone can if they choose to make the effort. If you don't know what the real world is, you obviously haven't made that effort and that's your problem, not mine. I don't have to prove what I know to anyone else.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:20 pm What 'challenges' and 'difficulties' do you perceive there is in the 'real world?

And, what is a 'life worth living', to you?

What exactly is a life of; 'real adventure', 'real achievement', and 'real fulfillment'? And, could ANY of what your views of these things be different to what thee ACTUAL real Truth IS, or are your views are the real and ONLY true views?

These are the kind of questions you have to ask? You have no idea what your life is, why it's worth living or what you are living for? I'm sorry I cannot help anyone without even that much fundamental understanding of their own existence.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:20 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm You can't have both and, unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

What have you actually achieved or 'created' of 'real value'?

And, has your 'real life' been completed and is the sum of 'your life' to satisfaction?

If yes, then HOW exactly?

Who appointed you Grand Inquisitor?

I am thoroughly enjoying my life, and have for over eighty years, because I never have to answer other's ignorant personal questions.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:35 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

How can you possibly know the experience and awareness of another? And how can you be so arrogant as to think you do -- or to think that your experience/awareness reveals all valid potential?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmThose who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You have no idea. I have manifested a highly successful life in the "real world", through all of the things you imagine that I don't know/do. Your black-and-white thinking fail again.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmYou can't have both

You can have even more. You don't seem able to comprehend such a thing because it is at odds with your very dualistic mindset: This or that is all there is... and the rest does not exist! Apparently you're comforted and feel validated by such thinking. But it's absurd that anything in this Universe would be so limited and small in potential and scope... and contingent on your perception.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

You speak of that which you have no clue, while demonstrating your rigidity at the same time. Thanks for the demonstration of the limits and failures of your thinking.

If you are right, I'll keep the, "limits and failures," of my thinking, which have never failed me in achieving and enjoying my life. In my experience, all those who reject the real world of immediate perception and experience, living in some Alice-In-Wonderland fictional world of their imaginations are never truly happy with their own life, and usually not content for others to live theirs as they choose. If my views are a fault, I'll take them over your virtues.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

There is no beyond temporal life, there is only life, whole and completely seamless here now, the only place there is.
There is nothing beyond the here and now to escape to or from.
The very idea that you can transcend the here and now would be like trying to jump over your own shadow.

There is absolutely nothing outside the prison wall that is mental construction, which is another word for creation.
To use the phrase ''wake-up'' implies you have been asleep, it implies you have been unaware, and that upon awakening, you become aware that you are unawareness.

“All that can be seen is nothing but a dream; and even when we think ourselves awake, we have only wakened in a dream.”





Sri Nisargadatta made a potent observation:

“Both sleep and waking are misnomers. We are only dreaming. We dream that we are awake, we dream that we are asleep. The three states are only varieties of the dream state. Treating everything as a dream liberates. As long as you give reality to dreams, you are their slave. By imagining that you were born as so-and-so, you become a slave to the so-and-so. The essence of slavery is to imagine yourself to be a process, to have past and future, to have history. In fact, we have no history, we are not a process, we do not develop, nor decay; see all as a dream and stay out of it.”



“From moment to moment you are renewing the dream. Once you have seen that you are dreaming, you shall wake up. But you do not see, because you want the dream to continue. A day will come when you will long for the ending of the dream, with all your heart and mind, and be willing to pay any price; the price will be dispassion, the loss of interest in the dream itself.”

~Sri Nisargadatta

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:40 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:20 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm
Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy.

Here is ANOTHER example of ANOTHER DIFFERENT ways of expressing the EXACT SAME Thing. But, and again, putting their own DIFFERENT 'take' on 'It', as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN, especially, in this one's next line.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

See, EVERY one of these people, in the days when this was written, expressed things from their own personal view as though that view was thee One and ONLY true, right, and correct view.

The obvious ABSURDITY of this speaks for itself, and of which can be SEEN, VERY CLEARLY.

These people actually BELIEVED that "their own personal view" was thee most accurate and correct view without ever once realizing WHY those views are distinctly DIFFERENT.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Those who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You come across as though you KNOW what the 'real world' actually is, you know, the one that 'you actually exist in'. But it is obvious that you do NOT know. Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise.

I do. Anyone can if they choose to make the effort. If you don't know what the real world is, you obviously haven't made that effort and that's your problem, not mine. I don't have to prove what I know to anyone else.

The arrogance, and ignorance, of this speaks for itself, so I will just leave it here.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:40 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:20 pm What 'challenges' and 'difficulties' do you perceive there is in the 'real world?

And, what is a 'life worth living', to you?

What exactly is a life of; 'real adventure', 'real achievement', and 'real fulfillment'? And, could ANY of what your views of these things be different to what thee ACTUAL real Truth IS, or are your views are the real and ONLY true views?

These are the kind of questions you have to ask?

And, this is a statement, with a question mark at the end.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:40 am You have no idea what your life is, why it's worth living or what you are living for?

Again, a statement, (of ASSUMPTION of "another"), with a question mark at the end of it.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:40 am I'm sorry I cannot help anyone without even that much fundamental understanding of their own existence.

You, OBVIOUSLY, lack absolutely ANY ability AT ALL to clarify ANY of your claims here, which leaves the readers wondering if you even know ANY thing about what you claim.

All you have done is just made MORE unsubstantiated ASSUMPTIONS and claims, of which you are SHOWING and PROVING there is absolutely NO use asking you ANY clarifying questions about.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:40 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:20 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm You can't have both and, unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

What have you actually achieved or 'created' of 'real value'?

And, has your 'real life' been completed and is the sum of 'your life' to satisfaction?

If yes, then HOW exactly?

Who appointed you Grand Inquisitor?

WHY are you completely and utterly INCAPABLE of just answering these questions? They are, after all, are directly related to your very OWN claims.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:40 am I am thoroughly enjoying my life, and have for over eighty years, because I never have to answer other's ignorant personal questions.

Okay.

So, in 'your world', you can say and claim whatever you like, but believe you do not have to back ANY thing up. Which kind of defeats the whole purpose of philosophical discussions, in most people's views.

Do you think you really are in the right place to express your, obviously, VERY DISTORTED view/s of things?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:21 am

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:19 pm Actually you can live according to your second paragraph and seek spiritual satisfaction. In fact, spiritual satisfaction will improve your connection to the world and people that you relate to.

Well, if that satisfies you, as the Aussies say, "good on ya." I prefer real satisfaction in this very real world.

Maybe you do, but you are completely INCAPABLE of expressing what "this very real world" is and what "real satisfaction" is, exactly. Which, to most people, REVEALS that you ACTUALLY do NOT even know what you are talking about.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:35 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

How can you possibly know the experience and awareness of another? And how can you be so arrogant as to think you do -- or to think that your experience/awareness reveals all valid potential?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmThose who settle for that pseudo-joy will never know the true ecstasy of living successfully and happily in the real world one actually exists in, works in, learns in, and, if they embrace it, enjoys by overcoming all it's challenges and difficulties to be and achieve a life worth living, a life of real adventure, achievement, and fulfillment, compared to which your dreamed-of phony, 'behind the veil' world is a paltry substitute.

You have no idea. I have manifested a highly successful life in the "real world", through all of the things you imagine that I don't know/do. Your black-and-white thinking fail again.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pmYou can't have both

You can have even more. You don't seem able to comprehend such a thing because it is at odds with your very dualistic mindset: This or that is all there is... and the rest does not exist! Apparently you're comforted and feel validated by such thinking. But it's absurd that anything in this Universe would be so limited and small in potential and scope... and contingent on your perception.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm unfortunately, must people settle for some version of the phony, 'behind the veil,' worlds of mystics and ideologies and never discover why their real life never seems quite complete or satisfactory, or why the sum of their life is not satisfaction, but regret, because they have never actually achieved or 'created' anything of real value.

You speak of that which you have no clue, while demonstrating your rigidity at the same time. Thanks for the demonstration of the limits and failures of your thinking.

If you are right, I'll keep the, "limits and failures," of my thinking, which have never failed me in achieving and enjoying my life. In my experience, all those who reject the real world of immediate perception and experience, living in some Alice-In-Wonderland fictional world of their imaginations are never truly happy with their own life, and usually not content for others to live theirs as they choose. If my views are a fault, I'll take them over your virtues.

So, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING more in this world' that you could achieve nor gain more enjoyment from.

And, it also does not matter how many more children you allow to die, which you OBVIOUSLY could prevent from happening in 'this world', there is NEVER ANY thought in that head that stops you from enjoying "your life", which is fair enough, but Truly a VERY miserable and sad way to live. Well, from my immediate perception and experience anyway. But please carry on, as you are.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:40 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

There is no beyond temporal life, there is only life, whole and completely seamless here now, the only place there is.
There is nothing beyond the here and now to escape to or from.
The very idea that you can transcend the here and now would be like trying to jump over your own shadow.

True,
True, and
True.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:40 am
There is absolutely nothing outside the prison wall that is mental construction, which is another word for creation.
To use the phrase ''wake-up'' implies you have been asleep, it implies you have been unaware, and that upon awakening, you become aware that you are unawareness.

“All that can be seen is nothing but a dream; and even when we think ourselves awake, we have only wakened in a dream.”





Sri Nisargadatta made a potent observation:

“Both sleep and waking are misnomers. We are only dreaming. We dream that we are awake, we dream that we are asleep.

The word 'we' either implies; 'there are "others" ', or, 'the collective of ALL'. So, which 'we' is being referred to here?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:40 am The three states are only varieties of the dream state. Treating everything as a dream liberates.

But, treating EVERY thing as a dream implies that One is NOT able to do ANY thing in order to CHANGE things, which is OBVIOUSLY NOT true, AT ALL.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:40 am As long as you give reality to dreams, you are their slave. By imagining that you were born as so-and-so, you become a slave to the so-and-so.

Thee One and ONLY 'I' was NOT born. But, EVERY human being was born. Or, do 'you' not agree with this?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:40 am The essence of slavery is to imagine yourself to be a process, to have past and future, to have history. In fact, we have no history, we are not a process, we do not develop, nor decay; see all as a dream and stay out of it.”

WHY NOT just WATCH and OBSERVE what is, always, REALLY happening and occurring HERE-NOW?

Just expressing/sharing those views, instead of BELIEVING or LIVING 'in them', as some might say, leaves one far MORE OPEN to DISCOVERING and/or UNCOVERING what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth REALLY IS.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:40 am “From moment to moment you are renewing the dream. Once you have seen that you are dreaming, you shall wake up. But you do not see, because you want the dream to continue. A day will come when you will long for the ending of the dream, with all your heart and mind, and be willing to pay any price; the price will be dispassion, the loss of interest in the dream itself.”

~Sri Nisargadatta

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:47 pm Many people have the same experience you and Dontaskme have. It is a lovely, peaceful, paradise beyond all temporal life and existence, a transcendent paradise of painless ecstatic joy. But alas, it is meaningless and pointless, and it only lasts until they wake up or the drugs wear off.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:35 pmHow can you possibly know the experience and awareness of another? And how can you be so arrogant as to think you do -- or to think that your experience/awareness reveals all valid potential?

He doesn't know the awareness or experience of others, he can only project his own insecure fearful phobias. Everyone who is of knowledge will project their world view, including me. It's how, as conscious beings, we learn to decipher what's true and real within our own personal perception.

To be fully open as a self-aware sentient being, is to realise that your own personal self-bias world view can only be your own creation, and does not have any other source outside of it's creation. We learn to discern the difference between reality and unreality, to be the same one reality, often coming to the stark realisation that both are the same one state.

So it matters not what his view is, all views are equally valid according to the projector. There's no point in arguing the beliefs of others, all we can do is learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff, otherwise everything becomes a very blurry and distorted mess. Discernment is the key.

''The psychotic drowns in the same waters in which the mystic swims''

Knowledge is power and can be dangerous. It can get you killed. And surrending to death is the highest form of Love, because ''Real Love'' knows that Love cannot die.


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RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:21 am

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:19 pm Actually you can live according to your second paragraph and seek spiritual satisfaction. In fact, spiritual satisfaction will improve your connection to the world and people that you relate to.

Well, if that satisfies you, as the Aussies say, "good on ya." I prefer real satisfaction in this very real world.

That's your choice. You can feed the body but not the soul. Good luck with that.