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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:32 pm
by simplicity
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pmA profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 pm
What would lead you to believe this?
Experience.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:40 pm
by simplicity
Age wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:05 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:17 pm
There are time delays, if that's what we're talking about, but from a human psychological perspective, at least, for most phenomena, time delays shorter than, say, a 20th to a 100th of a second are effectively negligible. So at the speed of light, for anything within a distance of at least 60 miles, there's effectively no time delay between the phenomenon and our perception.
If we're talking about more slowly moving information--such as soundwaves--we can definitely notice time delays between lightwaves and soundwaves. A good example of this can be had if you're sitting at some of the further points from the stage at stadium concerts. You'll be far enough away that you can see the drummer hit drums/cymbals, etc. slightly prior to being able to hear it.
What the point of any of this would be I'm not sure.
The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].
A profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality. This one idea opens up any entirely new perspective and is [really] the beginning of the liberation experience. All things are in constant flux and [because of this] are unknowable.
If ALL things are "unknowable", then HOW do you KNOW this?
And, if what you are perceiving is NOT Reality, then HOW do you KNOW this, and, what IS 'Reality', EXACTLY?
simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm
Imagine being relieved of the burden of having to figure everything out [which is impossible considering the notion that anything knowable is infinitely complex and always changing ].
In order to get everything, you must first give everything up.
WHY do the ones who CLAIM that it is IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW ANY thing CLAIM that they KNOW that this is ABSOLUTELY TRUE?
There are two realms, the intellectual and the non-intellectual. The intellectual is our thinking. Since our thinking is seriously flawed [for all kinds of reasons], you are correct to challenge any statement of knowledge. Nobody really knows anything, and what we do "know" [on a practical level] constantly changes as do the inputs that create this knowledge.
The non-intellectual is that which exists outside of our thinking. It just IS and needs no interpretation. And although this gained through our perception and does suffer from errors, as well, it's a lot closer to the truth of the matter. Actual Reality is simply beyond our ability to perceive.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:51 pm
by simplicity
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:22 pm
Reality as with everything that is human, is based upon our senses. The universe is that thing that created those senses, if in no other way through physics, chemistry, electricity (EMF), etc. Thus the universe is us and we are the universe.
Yes, I guess you could describe your personal reality this way, but it has little to do with actual Reality.
Unfortunately, most people spend a great deal of their time attempting to convince others that their reality is actual Reality [when the truth of the matter is that each person's personal reality is a conglomeration of their entire experience]. It's why so few people agree on much of anything [and never will].
It's also the reason that authoritarianism [as a philosophy, in general] is always a colossal failure in praxis.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:54 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:51 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:22 pm
Reality as with everything that is human, is based upon our senses. The universe is that thing that created those senses, if in no other way through physics, chemistry, electricity (EMF), etc. Thus the universe is us and we are the universe.
Yes, I guess you could describe your personal reality this way, but it has little to do with actual Reality.
Unfortunately, most people spend a great deal of their time attempting to convince others that their reality is actual Reality [when the truth of the matter is that each person's personal reality is a conglomeration of their entire experience]. It's why so few people agree on much of anything [and never will].
It's also the reason that authoritarianism [as a philosophy, in general] is always a colossal failure in praxis.
What you quoted of my message is the actual truth of things! There is only one Reality! There is no such thing as a personal reality! You're talking about belief, which has no bearing on reality. Reality is seen completely from the universal perspective. Humans have only scratched the surface of understanding what it is.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:25 pm
by simplicity
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:54 pmWhat you quoted of my message is the actual truth of things! There is only one Reality! There is no such thing as a personal reality! You're talking about belief, which has no bearing on reality. Reality is seen completely from the universal perspective. Humans have only scratched the surface of understanding what it is.
It is your truth. Perhaps there is a guy living in a cave somewhere in the South Pacific who believes very differently.
What does universally mean? Our intellects only move us further and further from the truth. Settle for perception without interpretation and that's as good as it gets...and humans will never get anywhere close to actual Reality. How could we?
Do you believe you know anything that is real?
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:19 pm
by Atla
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:40 pm
Actual Reality is simply beyond our ability to perceive.
Yes and no. What we are directly perceving is a time-delayed representation of reality, but technically this representation itself IS part of actual reality and it's not time-delayed. In the latter sense it's impossible
not to perceive "Actual Reality".
simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm
The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].
Again yes and no, the eternal and the temporal aren't mutually exclusive. In the latter sense of course there really is time, Einstein would like to have a word with you.
Dismissing time and access to actual reality like that, just looks like shallow philosophy..
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:21 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:25 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:54 pmWhat you quoted of my message is the actual truth of things! There is only one Reality! There is no such thing as a personal reality! You're talking about belief, which has no bearing on reality. Reality is seen completely from the universal perspective. Humans have only scratched the surface of understanding what it is.
It is your truth. Perhaps there is a guy living in a cave somewhere in the South Pacific who believes very differently.
What does universally mean?
Really? You have no idea what the universe is? The universal perspective existed from the moment the universe came into existence. It spans billions of years before our earth was born, let alone humankind. Reality exists without us. It is that thing with which both philosophy and science try to come to terms. The reason it's so illusive and hard to define, is because humankind is yet far too young.
Reality is what is real, it's the totality of the universe, both known and unknown.
Our intellects only move us further and further from the truth. Settle for perception without interpretation and that's as good as it gets...and humans will never get anywhere close to actual Reality. How could we?
Because we're a part of it.
Do you believe you know anything that is real?
There you go with belief again. I do not speak of belief I speak of facts!
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:42 pm
by Atla
There's that old Buddhist delusion, where they take reality and slice it up into moments, and then string these moments together. And then they come up with all kinds of nonsense based on this picture.
Of course reality can't be sliced up like that, only human thinking makes that mistake. Reality is continuous in time, just as it is continuous in space. Buddhists artificially slice it up and and then artifically string the moments together, and two mistakes don't make a right.
But the third, underlying mistake is the real kicker: this whole procedure requires absolute time, because only absolute time can be sliced up into moments. Absolute time is how humans naturally think, but modern science has refuted it.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:08 pm
by Terrapin Station
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:32 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pmA profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 pm
What would lead you to believe this?
Experience.
What experience led you to believe that? Can you be a little more specific?
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:00 pm
by simplicity
Atla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:19 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:40 pm
Actual Reality is simply beyond our ability to perceive.
Yes and no. What we are directly perceving is a time-delayed representation of reality, but technically this representation itself IS part of actual reality and it's not time-delayed. In the latter sense it's impossible
not to perceive "Actual Reality".
The time lag is only the initial issue. How about what happens between the stimulus and the end result of perception? Infinite opportunities for distortion.
simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm
The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].
Atla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:19 pmAgain yes and no, the eternal and the temporal aren't mutually exclusive. In the latter sense of course there really is time, Einstein would like to have a word with you.
Don't get me wrong, AE was a major thinker, but in due time, his ideas will be cast aside like the rest of them.
Atla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:19 pmDismissing time and access to actual reality like that, just looks like shallow philosophy..
Thank you for your opinion.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:08 pm
by simplicity
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:21 pm
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:25 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:54 pmWhat you quoted of my message is the actual truth of things! There is only one Reality! There is no such thing as a personal reality! You're talking about belief, which has no bearing on reality. Reality is seen completely from the universal perspective. Humans have only scratched the surface of understanding what it is.
It is your truth. Perhaps there is a guy living in a cave somewhere in the South Pacific who believes very differently.
What does universally mean?
Really? You have no idea what the universe is? The universal perspective existed from the moment the universe came into existence. It spans billions of years before our earth was born, let alone humankind. Reality exists without us. It is that thing with which both philosophy and science try to come to terms. The reason it's so illusive and hard to define, is because humankind is yet far too young.
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:21 pmReality is what is real, it's the totality of the universe, both known and unknown.
Reality is what is real? Is that like, length is what is long?
Our intellects only move us further and further from the truth. Settle for perception without interpretation and that's as good as it gets...and humans will never get anywhere close to actual Reality. How could we?
Because we're a part of it.
Do you believe you know anything that is real?
SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:21 pmThere you go with belief again. I do not speak of belief I speak of facts!
Perhaps you could share a fact with me.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:08 pm
by Vitruvius
I don't see the purpose of the topic. Why 'the reality gap' hypothesis? Is there some problem with our understanding of reality I'm unaware of? I thought we were doing fairly well in our general comprehension. After all, all our computers work, so we must know something of reality. I don't walk around bumping into things I can't see. Where's the beef?
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:13 pm
by simplicity
Atla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:42 pm
There's that old Buddhist delusion, where they take reality and slice it up into moments, and then string these moments together. And then they come up with all kinds of nonsense based on this picture.
Of course reality can't be sliced up like that, only human thinking makes that mistake. Reality is continuous in time, just as it is continuous in space. Buddhists artificially slice it up and and then artifically string the moments together, and two mistakes don't make a right.
But the third, underlying mistake is the real kicker: this whole procedure requires absolute time, because only absolute time can be sliced up into moments. Absolute time is how humans naturally think, but modern science has refuted it.
None of it's true. I believe we can agree on that. It's just that seeing reality as this "movie" [the only way our intellect can process] seems to be a bit off. Exactly what it is is beyond our grasp.
The moment thing seems to be a better explanation but only if you buy into the non-intellectual.
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:15 pm
by simplicity
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:08 pm
What experience led you to believe that? Can you be a little more specific?
The experience of realizing that Reality is inaccessible [detachment].
Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:24 pm
by Terrapin Station
simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:15 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:08 pm
What experience led you to believe that? Can you be a little more specific?
The experience of realizing that Reality is inaccessible [detachment].
lol, that's just restating the claim. Are you saying it's simply intuitive to you that "reality is inaccessible"? Otherwise what would that experience be?