Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:10 am Other libertarians believe one always belongs to oneself, that such contracts are illegitimate.

Yeah, I'm one of those.

In such a libertarian society you might wind up with a lot of unfree people.

Yep.

What's a, "libertarian society?"

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:12 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:03 pm Yep. It's almost like we were real people with our own individual thinkin'.

Almost. Individuals who think for themselves don't identify with any "ism," especially a political ideology like any form of, "libertarianism."

Yeah, I know.

You've repeated it so many times, how could I not?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:20 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:10 am Other libertarians believe one always belongs to oneself, that such contracts are illegitimate.

Yeah, I'm one of those.

In such a libertarian society you might wind up with a lot of unfree people.

Yep.

What's a, "libertarian society?"

Whatever the folks involved want it to be, I reckon.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:01 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:20 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:10 am Other libertarians believe one always belongs to oneself, that such contracts are illegitimate.

Yeah, I'm one of those.

In such a libertarian society you might wind up with a lot of unfree people.

Yep.

What's a, "libertarian society?"

Whatever the folks involved want it to be, I reckon.

That's what you've got. Why do libertarians want to change it?

When has any society ever been other than what those who are the society make it?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:12 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:03 pm Yep. It's almost like we were real people with our own individual thinkin'.

Almost. Individuals who think for themselves don't identify with any "ism," especially a political ideology like any form of, "libertarianism."

If there's an ism term for individuals who think for themselves and who don't identify with any ism, then they might not use the term, but it would still apply to them.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:32 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:01 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:20 pm
What's a, "libertarian society?"

Whatever the folks involved want it to be, I reckon.

*That's what you've got. Why do libertarians want to change it?

When has any society ever been other than what those who are the society make it?

*Nah.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:02 pm If there's an ism term for individuals who think for themselves ....

There isn't, but sometimes others make one up to use as a term of derision or insult, which is always entertaining.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:13 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:32 pm *That's what you've got. Why do libertarians want to change it?

When has any society ever been other than what those who are the society make it?

*Nah.

Brilliant! Is that your, "intuitive," answer?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:29 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:13 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:32 pm *That's what you've got. Why do libertarians want to change it?

When has any society ever been other than what those who are the society make it?

*Nah.

Brilliant! Is that your, "intuitive," answer?

Guy, you're just lookin' to promote your indvidualism.

Anything I post is just a jumpin' off point for you to market it.

I got no interest in helpin' you with that.

Besides, this guy...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32456

...already answered.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:45 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:29 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:13 pm

*Nah.

Brilliant! Is that your, "intuitive," answer?

Guy, you're just lookin' to promote your indvidualism.

Anything I post is just a jumpin' off point for you to market it.

I got no interest in helpin' you with that.

Besides, this guy...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32456

...already answered.

Believe what you like, but I'm not promoting anything. I do not for a moment suffer from the illusion that anyone can change anyone else or their views.

I only post what I know about those ideas that interest me, especially when I think they are badly mistaken and some others might be interested. They aren't directed at any individuals, only the ideas, but of course ideas do not exist on there own. Someone has to express them (as you do your ideas), so they are always attached to someone. Don't take it all so personally, or just ignore it if you like.

Why do you post your idea? Are you promoting something? Its alright with me if your are. I certainly wouldn't criticize it if you are; but if you are, why shouldn't anyone else be able to promote their views.

Frédéric Bastiat was one of the French Liberal School economists (forerunners of the Austrian School) who repeated some obvious facts about Dismal Economics and turned them into a social/poitical ideology, like all economic ideologies, would result in some dreamed of Utopian free and prosperous society, if only it could be forced on everyone--somehow.

Is that what you are promoting, Henry?

A moral realism...

I-A man belongs to himself.

II-A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

III-A man's life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

-----

A minarchism...

To defend, and offer redress of violations of, life, liberty, and property, the following safeguards are recommended...

I-a local constabulary

II-a local court of last resort

III-a border patrol

IIII-militia

-----

A direct realism...

The world exists, exists independent of us, and is apprehended by us as it is (*not in its entirety but as it is). We **apprehend it directly, without the aid of, or intervention of, [insert hypothetical whatsis] and without constructing a model or representation of the world somewhere in our heads.

*If you take into account perspective (where the observer stands in relation to the observed); intervening, inconstant, possible, distortions (water instead of atmosphere, for example); and the inherent limits of the observer himself; then what is seen is as it is.

**Direct realism, of course, is not just about sight. Hearing, taste, smell, touch: the entire interface of a person, as he's in the world, is the concern of the direct realist. That's why I define it as I do. Apprehension covers it all, the whole of a person's direct contact with the world.

-----

A deism...

The Creator creates. Reality is an on-going Creation. Man is made as a *free will (self-directing) with a moral sense (self-responsible). What a man does with himself may or may not interest the Creator.

-----

That's it. That's all. Any post of mine in this forum extends out of the above. Even the snark and memes and pics are driven by or relate to the above.

Incidentally, except for deism, the above aligns pretty well with Bastiat (which is to say, he was no more interested in utopia or forcin' folks to adhere than I am. No, Bastiat was lookin' to eliminate what he called legislators, what I call slavers. Optimistically perhaps, he believed eliminatin' legislators would lead a free and prosperous society, as you put it. Me, I just think it would result in a freer one).

And: nope, I got no interest in hearin' again what you think about any of the above.

We don't agree on a great many things: I'm okay with that.


why shouldn't anyone else be able to promote their views(?)

No reason at all, just be honest about it. Don't say I'm not promoting anything when it's obvious you're doin' exactly that.




*libertarian agent causation: absolutely the only free will worth havin'

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:02 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:12 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:03 pm Yep. It's almost like we were real people with our own individual thinkin'.

Almost. Individuals who think for themselves don't identify with any "ism," especially a political ideology like any form of, "libertarianism."

If there's an ism term for individuals who think for themselves and who don't identify with any ism, then they might not use the term, but it would still apply to them.

I think egoism comes closest, in the Stirnerite sense.