Philosophy Now Forum

IC..don't you understand that humans can make up just about any story they like according to their own imagination. And just like a little innocent child, adult children will also believe what others are informing them if what they are hearing fits with their own model of what constitutes understanding their being in this reality.

Who told you that you exist IC...?

...oh that's right, knowledge told you, and where did that knowledge come from? oh that's right it came from someone's not your imagination, but then you decided to soak it in, as if it was actually literal and true as you developed the capacity for belief.

You knew absolutely no knowledge of anything whatsoever prior to and at your actual birth, just like all the other sentient creatures that roam the earth. All your now claimed knowledge was passed on to you from someone elses imagination, because you had no knowledge of your own being, so you believed the story told by another, which was their own believed fabricated made up story that was passed onto them.... and back and back the story goes, back to it's original base level of mute primate world.

Knowledge of sensation is real, animals automatically know to avoid pain and feel content and relaxed in the absence of pain. That's all that's going on here IC..it's nothing magical like the work of some supreme being like you want to believe it is.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:14 pm IC..don't you understand that humans can make up just about any story they like according to their own imagination.

Of course I do. Everyone does.

But that's not the question. In the case of the Bible, the question is, "Did they"?

Who told you that you exist IC...?

Heh. Well, maybe Rene Descartes did...but I knew it long before he told me.

You knew absolutely no knowledge of anything whatsoever prior to and at your actual birth, just like all the other sentient creatures that roam the earth. All your now claimed knowledge was passed on to you from someone else...

Well, not quite. One learns stuff, you know. Experience also teaches, and that's not second-hand.

...s imagination...

Whoops. Here's your mistake. You're assuming your conclusion, not demonstrating it. You may be choosing to imagine that all is somebody else's imagination...but of course, that's just imagination.

But let's play for a moment as if you're right. Somebody told me that 2+2=4.

Yes, they did.

And then I did the maths for myself. You know what I found out? It didn't come from their imagination: 2+2 actually =4.

So even IF we say we can only learn from the imagination of others (which clearly isn't true), it does not follow that whatever they "imagined" was also a delusion or a falsehood. Apparently, my maths teacher could "imagine" something that was actually true.

So again, the question is not "who imagined it," but rather, "Was their account only imagination, or was it a case of a person imagining for themselves, for the first time, something that also happens to be the truth?"

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:56 pm

Scott Mayers wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:55 pm He has proven that he is not interested in requests for proof on this issue.

She didn't ask for "proof." She asked what the "image of God" is.

..."He is the image of the invisible God,..." (Colossians 1:15)

Now she knows.

This quote is saying that God is the invisible imaged visible. The creator of all things invisible imaged visibles.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:56 pm

Scott Mayers wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:55 pm He has proven that he is not interested in requests for proof on this issue.

She didn't ask for "proof." She asked what the "image of God" is.

..."He is the image of the invisible God,..." (Colossians 1:15)

Now she knows.

This quote is saying that God is the invisible imaged visible. The creator of all things invisible imaged visibles.

You've got it...sort of.

It's saying this:

" Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own, but the Father, as He remains in Me, does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:6-11)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:31 pm Whoops. Here's your mistake. You're assuming your conclusion, not demonstrating it. You may be choosing to imagine that all is somebody else's imagination...but of course, that's just imagination.

But let's play for a moment as if you're right. Somebody told me that 2+2=4.

Yes, they did.

And then I did the maths for myself. You know what I found out? It didn't come from their imagination: 2+2 actually =4.

And here is your mistake. 2+2 is not imagined, it's common knowledge. I take two pieces of paper, add another two pieces of paper, and automatically know from directly looking at the 4 pieces of paper that two sets of paper equal 4

I do not need a God to work out that simple equation. I worked it out, me. Not God. Not the tooth fairy, but me, I demonstrated using the materials I have in front of me. I did it.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:31 pm Whoops. Here's your mistake. You're assuming your conclusion, not demonstrating it. You may be choosing to imagine that all is somebody else's imagination...but of course, that's just imagination.

But let's play for a moment as if you're right. Somebody told me that 2+2=4.

Yes, they did.

And then I did the maths for myself. You know what I found out? It didn't come from their imagination: 2+2 actually =4.

And here is your mistake. 2+2 is not imagined, it's common knowledge.

It's not my "mistake." You were the one who said all knowledge is "imagined" by others. Your word choice...not mine. I wouldn't even have said it, let alone believed it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:31 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:14 pm IC..don't you understand that humans can make up just about any story they like according to their own imagination.

Of course I do. Everyone does.

But that's not the question. In the case of the Bible, the question is, "Did they"?

The question is who are they?

Fill in the blank IC ...and show me exactly where you got blank filler from...I want you to show me an image of the blank filler?

That image I am presuming you will be able to show me, will be the source of the actual written word that can be read in the bible.

.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:31 pm Whoops. Here's your mistake. You're assuming your conclusion, not demonstrating it. You may be choosing to imagine that all is somebody else's imagination...but of course, that's just imagination.

But let's play for a moment as if you're right. Somebody told me that 2+2=4.

Yes, they did.

And then I did the maths for myself. You know what I found out? It didn't come from their imagination: 2+2 actually =4.

And here is your mistake. 2+2 is not imagined, it's common knowledge.

It's not my "mistake." You were the one who said all knowledge is "imagined" by others. Your word choice...not mine. I wouldn't even have said it, let alone believed it.

And you were the one who brought up the 2+2 = 4 argument not being an imagined truth. Not me, I wouldn't have said that, let alone believed it. I do not have to imagine that math, it's self evident. You are the one twisting and playing silly games now.

All I asked you was..who told you that you exist? ..then you changed the subject with your 2+2 = 4 crap.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:31 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:14 pm IC..don't you understand that humans can make up just about any story they like according to their own imagination.

Of course I do. Everyone does.

But that's not the question. In the case of the Bible, the question is, "Did they"?

The question is who are they?

The authors. Guys like Paul, or Matthew, or Luke, who claim to have actually seen and known stuff about Jesus Christ. Did they "imagine" it? Or did they see it and report it? That's the question.

What people did in the cases of Grimm's Fairy Tales, or Aesop's Fables, or the media reports of the last presidential election, have no bearing on the case.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:59 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:31 pm
Of course I do. Everyone does.

But that's not the question. In the case of the Bible, the question is, "Did they"?

The question is who are they?

The authors. Guys like Paul, or Matthew, or Luke, who claim to have actually seen and known stuff about Jesus Christ. Did they "imagine" it? Or did they see it and report it? That's the question.

What people did in the cases of Grimm's Fairy Tales, or Aesop's Fables, or the media reports of the last presidential election, have no bearing on the case.

Right ok, so some humans beings wrote stories about another human being...sounds a lot like what happens all the time in present day media reports, elections and such likes.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:02 pm Right ok, so some humans beings wrote stories about another human being...sounds a lot like what happens all the time in present day media reports, elections and such likes.

Sounds also like what historians do.

So the question is, which is it? Is Jesus Christ fiction, or history?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:06 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:02 pm Right ok, so some humans beings wrote stories about another human being...sounds a lot like what happens all the time in present day media reports, elections and such likes.

Sounds also like what historians do.

So the question is, which is it? Is Jesus Christ fiction, or history?

If Jesus Christ is the image of God. As you have claimed earlier, then why are you now asking if God is an historical fictional character ?

I thought you already claimed to know God exists?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:10 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:06 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:02 pm Right ok, so some humans beings wrote stories about another human being...sounds a lot like what happens all the time in present day media reports, elections and such likes.

Sounds also like what historians do.

So the question is, which is it? Is Jesus Christ fiction, or history?

If Jesus Christ is the image of God. As you have claimed earlier, then why are you now asking if God is an historical fictional character ?

I thought you already claimed to know God exists?

I'm only speaking in your terms. You were asking if the accounts of Jesus Christ were just "stories about another human being." And I was pointing out that that is far from the only possible conclusion: one could equally say they are histories of a real Human Being, and of the real experiences real people had with Him.

I leave it to your choice which you believe they are. My choice has already been stated.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:12 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:10 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:06 pm
Sounds also like what historians do.

So the question is, which is it? Is Jesus Christ fiction, or history?

If Jesus Christ is the image of God. As you have claimed earlier, then why are you now asking if God is an historical fictional character ?

I thought you already claimed to know God exists?

I'm only speaking in your terms. You were asking if the accounts of Jesus Christ were just "stories about another human being." And I was pointing out that that is far from the only possible conclusion: one could equally say they are histories of a real Human Being, and of the real experiences real people had with Him.

I leave it to your choice which you believe they are. My choice has already been stated.

And your choice is that you believe that Jesus the man is the image of God.

So in your account God is dead...is that right IC ?

You can keep on avoiding the hard question till the cows come home, but until you tell the real truth, the cows will abstain from ever coming home.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:15 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:12 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:10 pm

If Jesus Christ is the image of God. As you have claimed earlier, then why are you now asking if God is an historical fictional character ?

I thought you already claimed to know God exists?

I'm only speaking in your terms. You were asking if the accounts of Jesus Christ were just "stories about another human being." And I was pointing out that that is far from the only possible conclusion: one could equally say they are histories of a real Human Being, and of the real experiences real people had with Him.

I leave it to your choice which you believe they are. My choice has already been stated.

and your choice is that you believe that Jesus the man is the image of God.

So in your account God is dead...is that right IC ?

You're being facetious now, of course.

I believe in the Resurrection. And not just in His, but in mine and in yours, as a consequence of His. I believe in eternal life, and in the Great Judgment, as well. There is a moment coming when you and I both will know the truth about this. The only question is, what will be the position you have chosen relative to that event, when it happens?