Philosophy Now Forum

Skip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:13 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:00 pm

By “propaganda” I mean lies.

Insufficient. There all kinds of lies. Propaganda is a very particular kind of communication package - not necessarily or exclusively lies - aimed at a specific audience for a specific purpose.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda
Before you can study a phenomenon to useful effect, you must first understand what it is. Before you can counteract it, you must understand how it works.

By “lies” I was referring to propaganda of the negative sort.

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:24 am By “lies” I was referring to propaganda of the negative sort.

Oh, so there is a positive sort? Show some examples, please.

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:56 pm Can media defeat propaganda? Can education do it?

These are two of the biggest offenders.

If you trust them to help you eliminate propaganda, you're putting the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

Skip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:13 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:00 pm

By “propaganda” I mean lies.

Insufficient. There all kinds of lies. Propaganda is a very particular kind of communication package - not necessarily or exclusively lies - aimed at a specific audience for a specific purpose.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda
Before you can study a phenomenon to useful effect, you must first understand what it is. Before you can counteract it, you must understand how it works.

Propaganda is the focused set of INTENTIONAL deceptive practices used with social-psychological wisdom of crowd behavior used to manipulate the masses IN HOPE that they do not notice when or where they are lying or telling the truth. But it is dependent on the assumption THAT deception is needed at all. Those with power wanting to conserve it, prefer to do use this and want it to also appear 'fair' against the logic of it being intrinsically 'unfair' in sincerity.

When even one side of political oppositions use this, it also forces the other side to REQUIRE doing this (even if they are intrinsically against it in their platform). This then biases the power to those conservatives MINORITIES using this because when one BELEIVES in using deception as 'fair' play, they can frame the politics of the whole.

For example, isn't it ODD how the political divide for voting in the U.S. is 50/50? I mean HOW is it even likely for this balanced odds to occur in such a variety of differences in all people? I saw a Dr Phil show the other day where he pointed this out, but as an intent to demonstrate the familiy members who are at odds with each other due to the election and their political differences being discussed at their upcoming Thanksgiving family dinners. What I wanted to do is to jump through the screen and point out that while it SEEMS 'fair' for being about 50/50 to the political divide, propaganda of the wealthy among all the parties are likely forcing this to become 50/50 when they are likely not.

Given that the only way any one person can be deemed relatively prosperous to any other person (let alone more than one), requires at least two others who have relatively less prosperity. So how CAN the divide actually be 50/50 unless there are those on both sides behind the scenes utilizing means to manipulate others to get to this unnatural miraculous balance? To me it stinks of the wealthy intentionally using things like the power of ownership on media to manipulate the masses into thinking the diffences make us 'democratically' fair on average when it is more likey 'republican' in effective control even if they are possibly an absurd minority!!

Propaganda should NOT be permitted. This is the issues initially raised by Socrates against those selling how to use rhetorical tactics to win arguments even if not logically valid or sound. [That is, ...the 'Sophists', those selling knowledge that can be used to undermine sincere truth for those who believe that any means to an end is 'fair']

Skip wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:03 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:24 am By “lies” I was referring to propaganda of the negative sort.

Oh, so there is a positive sort? Show some examples, please.

Your distinction. You go first.

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:59 pm By “lies” I was referring to propaganda of the negative sort.

Is there any other sort?

Skip wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:30 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:59 pm By “lies” I was referring to propaganda of the negative sort.

Is there any other sort?

Actually, Skip, I’m not sure who it was, but there’s an earlier post asserting that propaganda is not always negative, suggesting then that some propaganda is not negative but positive. That’s not my position, though.

Skip wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:30 pm Is there any other sort?

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:57 pm Actually, Skip, I’m not sure who it was, but there’s an earlier post asserting that propaganda is not always negative, suggesting then that some propaganda is not negative but positive. That’s not my position, though.

If you remove the social stigma/negative connotation from the meaning of the word "propaganda" then just about everything humans do fits the bill. Philosophy included.

Propaganda implies motivated reasoning/goal-seeking behaviour.

Personally, I am of the belief that all reasoning is motivated (even if the reasoner hasn't figured out what their motives are). Else, why bother with it?

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:57 pm [By “lies” I was referring to propaganda of the negative sort.]
[Is there any other sort?]

Actually, Skip, I’m not sure who it was, but there’s an earlier post asserting that propaganda is not always negative, suggesting then that some propaganda is not negative but positive. That’s not my position, though.

So, you contend that there is no positive or neutral sort of propaganda; only the negative sort?
But you felt it important to repeat that, instead of defining propaganda.
Just checking.
Carry on.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:03 pm If you remove the social stigma/negative connotation from the meaning of the word "propaganda" then just about everything humans do fits the bill. Philosophy included.

Propaganda implies motivated reasoning/goal-seeking behaviour.

I don't think so. I think propaganda means (explicitly, not implicitly) a deliberate, co-ordinated campaign of transmitting information to an audience, where the information is selected, organized, slanted, distorted, falsified, emotionally weighted, packaged and presented in such a way as to persuade the audience of a belief favourable to interests of the purveyor.

It's quite reasonable to consider British war-time propaganda as "positive", if you think it achieved a desirable goal. But it's not reasonable to call it anything other than propaganda.
It's not reasonable to consider the intellectual output of Nietzsche propaganda, but deliberately selected parts of it could well be incorporated into a propaganda campaign.

Personally, I am of the belief that all reasoning is motivated (even if the reasoner hasn't figured out what their motives are). Else, why bother with it?

And if all is something and something is everything why bother having names for them?

The only way to sieve for propaganda is to look and see who is either unwitting of personal gain, or is disinterested in personal gain. Thus dogs and idiots can't propagate lies. Men whose interest and talent is profit , from snake- oil selling of the Wild West to modern financial incentives that reward dishonest behaviour can and often do propagate lies due to self interest.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:49 pm The only way to sieve for propaganda is to look and see who is either unwitting of personal gain, or is disinterested in personal gain. Thus dogs and idiots can't propagate lies. Men whose interest and talent is profit , from snake- oil selling of the Wild West to modern financial incentives that reward dishonest behaviour can and often do propagate lies due to self interest.

hence the need, as I say, to be the gatekeeper of your head

not possible to vet every source, so you gotta apply that antiquated facility common sense

somebody said: your brain can be misled, your heart can be fooled, so trust your gut

Unfortunately, the gut is the most vulnerable organ!
Trump supporters are notoriously well endowed in that department.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:49 pm The only way to sieve for propaganda is to look and see who is either unwitting of personal gain, or is disinterested in personal gain. Thus dogs and idiots can't propagate lies. Men whose interest and talent is profit , from snake- oil selling of the Wild West to modern financial incentives that reward dishonest behaviour can and often do propagate lies due to self interest.

It may not be the only way to sieve for propaganda, but it is a proven explanation for President Trump's popularity.

Walker wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:29 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:49 pm The only way to sieve for propaganda is to look and see who is either unwitting of personal gain, or is disinterested in personal gain. Thus dogs and idiots can't propagate lies. Men whose interest and talent is profit , from snake- oil selling of the Wild West to modern financial incentives that reward dishonest behaviour can and often do propagate lies due to self interest.

It may not be the only way to sieve for propaganda, but it is a proven explanation of President Trump's popularity.

Donald Trump is not an idiot. He well knows how to pose as the man who can rescue from poverty.
He sets up a magical shooting gallery and invites you in.