Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:37 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:57 pm Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

Jesus has free will just like any other bloke. He is interfaced to his 'God' system and can interrogate it whenever he chooses.

Not according to my argument.

I see no argument.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:37 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:31 pm God does not know ALL the future, but has the free will to direct it to whatever future God desires.

Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Hey, that's a good one and it IS true - as I have experienced this many many many many time since 1997.

By the time ones conscious mind is about to formulate a word - this God entity can call it out before it gets to the point of being able to be spoken.

This means that God KNOWS the state of every synapse within our brains - and can 'see' the development and direction of our thought as we formulate what we are about to say.

I don't see how that has any relevance to whatever 'argument' you are making?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:04 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:37 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:31 pm Jesus has free will just like any other bloke. He is interfaced to his 'God' system and can interrogate it whenever he chooses.

Not according to my argument.

I see no argument.

Here there is the argument: Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:04 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:37 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:31 pm God does not know ALL the future, but has the free will to direct it to whatever future God desires.

Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Hey, that's a good one and it IS true - as I have experienced this many many many many time since 1997.

By the time ones conscious mind is about to formulate a word - this God entity can call it out before it gets to the point of being able to be spoken.

This means that God KNOWS the state of every synapse within our brains - and can 'see' the development and direction of our thought as we formulate what we are about to say.

I don't see how that has any relevance to whatever 'argument' you are making?

Well, if they could know what you are going to think or do then they know the future.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:04 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:37 pm
Not according to my argument.

I see no argument.

Here there is the argument: Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

non sequitur. Jesus can do whatever Jesus wants, whether he accesses the God system to know more detail about the likelihood of future events, or instructs the God system to ensure future events..is irrelevant to your case, he has as much free will as you and more.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:04 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:37 pm Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Hey, that's a good one and it IS true - as I have experienced this many many many many time since 1997.

By the time ones conscious mind is about to formulate a word - this God entity can call it out before it gets to the point of being able to be spoken.

This means that God KNOWS the state of every synapse within our brains - and can 'see' the development and direction of our thought as we formulate what we are about to say.

I don't see how that has any relevance to whatever 'argument' you are making?

Well, if they could know what you are going to think or do then they know the future.

I guess English must be a second language. I have no idea what you are attempting to convey, and please re-read my statement.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:45 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:04 am
I see no argument.

Here there is the argument: Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

non sequitur. Jesus can do whatever Jesus wants, whether he accesses the God system to know more detail about the likelihood of future events, or instructs the God system to ensure future events..is irrelevant to your case, he has as much free will as you and more.

It is not a non sequitur. If you know that you will do X in the future then you have to do X. You cannot do possibly otherwise since that is against your knowledge.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:45 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:04 am Hey, that's a good one and it IS true - as I have experienced this many many many many time since 1997.

By the time ones conscious mind is about to formulate a word - this God entity can call it out before it gets to the point of being able to be spoken.

This means that God KNOWS the state of every synapse within our brains - and can 'see' the development and direction of our thought as we formulate what we are about to say.

I don't see how that has any relevance to whatever 'argument' you are making?

Well, if they could know what you are going to think or do then they know the future.

I guess English must be a second language. I have no idea what you are attempting to convey, and please re-read my statement.

If they know that you will do something in the future by analyzing your brain then they know the future. I cannot make it clearer than this.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:57 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:31 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:57 pm Jesus is God.

Is He? He does not seem so via a reading of Gospel of Mark. in that he seems to not be God and not understand why he has to die.

My concern is about people who believe that He is God.

0k, why is that your concern? - for discussions sake.

i do not take Christian's view as Jesus is God, since AD 68 (when James - Jesus' brother was blugeoned to death), and since 79 ad - when Jerusalem and her 2 temple were removed form the Earth for insurrection with Roman Rule - 4 yrs prior.

so ya Mark's view (the Jewish Ebionite view - which was the majority view for 40 yrs - from the time of Jesus' death to 68 AD) - today its not, instead its (all Christians) Jesus is God, not his son/Son.


So Mark/Matthew/Lukes theology lost out via history and John's view won out.

so - why does that concern you?

honestly curious.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:37 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:57 pm Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

Jesus has free will just like any other bloke. He is interfaced to his 'God' system and can interrogate it whenever he chooses.

Not according to my argument.

what was your argument?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 am
Here there is the argument: Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

Ignore my prior post, i had not read you above 10 minutes ago. so thank you for stating your argument above, and now i understand what it is.

let me parse it though.

Jesus is God

As an Athiest i dissagree, i think he existed and as just a good man, not God nor His son. of course Christians dissagree. and thats fine by me.

I'm not a Christian. just a smuck.

God has foreknowledge

yep, i concur that if there is a God or Gods they would have such powers.

Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free

?????????????? clarify please.

i view Jesus as man born the normal way via Mark, or even if via his dad being God, those 3 works do not equate Jesus as God and the former had no foreknowledge of anything (refer to when the end times will happen - per Gosp of Matt - jesus says only his daddy knows when (so he does not know!), and note Jesus' fear of his own death, and not understanding why in gosp of Mark.

of course in John's Gospel Jesus is more robot than human, has all the answers and does not fear his death.

owl of Minerva wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:52 pm "Jesus said he was doing his fathers will, that being his own, if you buy into the stupid Trinity concept."'

What is stupid about the Trinity concept? There are three forces in nature. We do not consider them stupid. It is likely they have a common source.

Everything is stupid in the Trinity concept.

Do you want to talk forces of nature, or the force of an imaginary genocidal p**** of a god?

Regards
DL

Jesus has exactly the same amount of free will as any other dead prophet; none.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:50 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:57 pm

gaffo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:31 am
Is He? He does not seem so via a reading of Gospel of Mark. in that he seems to not be God and not understand why he has to die.

My concern is about people who believe that He is God.

0k, why is that your concern? - for discussions sake.

i do not take Christian's view as Jesus is God, since AD 68 (when James - Jesus' brother was blugeoned to death), and since 79 ad - when Jerusalem and her 2 temple were removed form the Earth for insurrection with Roman Rule - 4 yrs prior.

so ya Mark's view (the Jewish Ebionite view - which was the majority view for 40 yrs - from the time of Jesus' death to 68 AD) - today its not, instead its (all Christians) Jesus is God, not his son/Son.


So Mark/Matthew/Lukes theology lost out via history and John's view won out.

so - why does that concern you?

honestly curious.

Yes, for discussion's sake.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:06 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 am
Here there is the argument: Jesus is God. God has foreknowledge. The foreknowledge is the knowledge about what is going to happen. Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free.

Ignore my prior post, i had not read you above 10 minutes ago. so thank you for stating your argument above, and now i understand what it is.

let me parse it though.

Jesus is God

As an Athiest i dissagree, i think he existed and as just a good man, not God nor His son. of course Christians dissagree. and thats fine by me.

I'm not a Christian. just a smuck.

God has foreknowledge

yep, i concur that if there is a God or Gods they would have such powers.

Jesus could not do otherwise. Therefore He is not free

?????????????? clarify please.

i view Jesus as man born the normal way via Mark, or even if via his dad being God, those 3 works do not equate Jesus as God and the former had no foreknowledge of anything (refer to when the end times will happen - per Gosp of Matt - jesus says only his daddy knows when (so he does not know!), and note Jesus' fear of his own death, and not understanding why in gosp of Mark.

of course in John's Gospel Jesus is more robot than human, has all the answers and does not fear his death.

I know your view about Jesus being a normal man who was born naturally. I am however arguing against people who think that He is God and has foreknowledge.

Jesus objected to being called good saying no one was good; or perfect, but God. That indicates he did not consider himself as God. Being one with God-consciousness through Christ consciousness, not being God.

When he said "Not my will but Thy will be done" it shows that there was a struggle to surrender his human will to divine will. The evolution of consciousness appears to symbolize sacrificing the animal (instinctive nature) first, (Old Testament), then the son (ego or self-will) New Testament in order for consciousness to evolve beyond limited human consciousness to universal consciousness. If it does not mean the evolution of consciousness there is no other meaning to sacrificing the animal and later the son.

owl of Minerva wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:30 pm Jesus objected to being called good saying no one was good; or perfect, but God.

No he didn't, actually. What he did was ask the Rich Young Ruler, "Why are you calling Me 'good'? There is none good, except God alone." In other words, if you call me "good master," and mean it, you're calling Me "God": is that what your'e doing?

When he said "Not my will but Thy will be done" it shows that there was a struggle to surrender his human will to divine will.

And yet, He also said, "I do always those things that please the Father." And He did. In absolutely every case. Doesn't mean it was easy, because He was man, too. But it does mean that nothing was more to Him than the Father's will.

owl of Minerva wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:30 pm
Jesus objected to being called good saying no one was good; or perfect, but God.

"No he didn't, actually. What he did was ask the Rich Young Ruler, "Why are you calling Me 'good'? There is none good, except God alone." In other words, if you call me "good master," and mean it, you're calling Me "God": is that what your'e doing?

When he said "Not my will but Thy will be done" it shows that there was a struggle to surrender his human will to divine will.

"And yet, He also said, "I do always those things that please the Father." And He did. In absolutely every case. Doesn't mean it was easy, because He was man, too. But it does mean that nothing was more to Him than the Father's will."
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Answer to above:
Jesus has been downgraded to being just a prophet or upgraded to being God. Neither is realistic. A prophet is not one with Intelligence, they do not know things directly, they have to be revealed or dictated to them by some other entity; an angel, a vision, a tablet etc. Buddhi also was more than a prophet. He was one with Intelligence (buddhi). He did not go beyond that to being one with cosmic consciousness.

Jesus said to his followers "yet are gods." There can be many gods but only one God. Physicists who are atheists talk of everything being 'something from nothing' or a singularity, not everything coming from numerous nothings or numerous singularities, which would be a contradiction in terms.

Jesus did what he knew would please his Father. He used his free will to do it. We too may know what is right, we can choose it or not choose it. The choice is ours to make.

owl of Minerva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:25 pm Jesus has been downgraded to being just a prophet or upgraded to being God.

Well, when you see Him, you'll find out if that's true.

And this I absolutely promise you...more certainly than I can promise you my own existence. You will see Him, whether you want to or not. So be careful what you say about Him, for your own sake.

Is He a prophet? Yes, and more than that. But if you recognize Him as at least a prophet, then why do you not listen to what He says?

Jesus said:

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

(John 5:21-23)