Philosophy Now Forum

seeds wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:17 pm I’m trying to picture the size of that “stockade” you mentioned.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:06 am couldn't find a shot of a spook in a stockade

Where are you finding these post-able pictures with the coding at the bottom?

For some reason, my browser won’t allow me to copy and paste pictures anymore.

(Or it might be something funky going on since a recent upgrade to Windows 10. )
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seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:27 pm ...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?

In other words,...

(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)

...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:33 am Not at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!

That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.

Sorry, Dubious, but reason and rationality have no place in this scenario.

Because we are talking about a situation where according to Christian dogma, the one and only crime that one can commit that will guarantee a ticket to Hell is the failure before you physically die...

(be it through intentional rejection, or purely circumstantial - as in dying as an infant, for example)

...to be run-through the ritualistic process where Jesus can wipe-clean your inherited stain of “original sin.” Otherwise, you’re a goner.

Besides, I can think of lots of Hell-worthy crimes* carried out on our behalf by humans (military personnel) that you and I not only support via our tax dollars, but also share in the bounty of what they plunder.

*(For example, the explosive dismembering of the bodies of children by drone missiles and “smart” bombs.)

And the point is, don’t be so quick to absolve yourself of complicity in offenses that are worthy of Hell.

However, all of that is beside the point of this thread.

Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?

( Please forgive the rant, because I know we are just discussing mythological fantasy here, but it is fantasy that some humans actually believe to be true.)
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 amSorry, Dubious, but reason and rationality have no place in this scenario.

Yes, I realize that but you asked a specific question...

With that in mind, the question is: would you, Christian or Muslim,...

(or anyone else who believes in the existence of the heaven/hell scenario)

...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?

In other words,...

(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)

...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?

And to extend the question a little further: would you do it for a stranger?

I merely followed up on it in the way it was presented, as you say, as a thought experiment and I replied directly to that question. Maybe I misunderstood your intent.

There is indeed no rationality or reason for the universe, being as indifferent to the rational as to the irrational, to dedicate part of its space to a region called hell as a place of religious retribution. There must certainly be a vast number hellish regions in it - think of the closest one, Venus - but it's very unlikely anything, including spirits, live there.

...but as you imply, maybe I didn't get the meaning of your post.

Where are you finding these post-able pictures with the coding at the bottom?

Google images. The coding comes from the machine I use. I work off an old ipad. When i post an image the site offers me the option to put the image inline. It's not really an option, though: if I don't choose inline my images won't show. Anyway, I like the coding cuz it lets me see how many views the image has had.


For some reason, my browser won’t allow me to copy and paste pictures anymore.

(Or it might be something funky going on since a recent upgrade to Windows 10. )

Send Amod a message: ask for his assist. Mebbe some forum machinery needs tweakin'.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?

Yes, exactly!

Religion CREATES EVIL which is projected onto others. This serves to falsely glorify the religious as being above that which is made-up. It's so incredibly absurd and transparent, I don't know how anyone can still be believing/repeating such things.

To threaten others with made-up horror is not just foolish, it's hateful. Ignorance and hate go hand-in-hand it seems. You've effectively pointed out, Seeds, how twisted it is for anyone to relish going to a Heaven when their loved ones are burning forever in Hell. It makes no sense of any compassionate, loving being! That's what I see about religion in general: it makes no sense! It's a convoluted assemblage of stories and brain-washing, by various groups of people using varying methodologies, who seek to control and judge and reassure themselves and others with fantasy. I think it's unnecessary... as well as delusional and toxic.

The religious choose a static story rather than being open to an ever-broadening of awareness. They choose death over life -- limits over expansiveness -- locking themselves down, rather than spreading their wings. What kind of angels are those? Stunted, fearful, contrived. If there were a great devil, he would surely be the creator of religion: a perfect means for distorting and derailing people from seeing and honoring the divine nature accessible and reflected throughout all. A great deceiver pulling off the perfect deception/cover -- pretending to be exactly that which it is not! What could be more effective for assembling and mobilizing deceived and devoted armies?

Despite any "good works" (which are actually from the beauty of the individuals themselves), religion is/creates/perpetuates the evil that it continually warns against, pretends to be above, and hides behind. That is why concepts of Heaven and Hell are so hatefully twisted: they are a smokescreen for fear and hatefulness. They are not really about goodness and love. And, strangely, very good people get sucked into perpetuating such fear and hatefulness.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:17 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:50 am Where are you finding these post-able pictures with the coding at the bottom?

Google images. The coding comes from the machine I use. I work off an old ipad. When i post an image the site offers me the option to put the image inline. It's not really an option, though: if I don't choose inline my images won't show. Anyway, I like the coding cuz it lets me see how many views the image has had.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:50 am For some reason, my browser won’t allow me to copy and paste pictures anymore.

(Or it might be something funky going on since a recent upgrade to Windows 10. )

Send Amod a message: ask for his assist. Mebbe some forum machinery needs tweakin'.

Okay, thanks henry.
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm Yes, exactly!

Religion CREATES EVIL which is projected onto others. This serves to falsely glorify the religious as being above that which is made-up. It's so incredibly absurd and transparent, I don't know how anyone can still be believing/repeating such things.

As always, Lacewing, you make some excellent points.

However, just so that there is no misunderstanding here, I unashamedly admit that I am a hardcore theist (more specifically, a panentheistic idealist) who firmly believes that there is a singular (self-aware) living intelligence that is responsible for the creation of our universe. I’m talking about an intelligence that I suggest is as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas (metaphorically speaking, of course).

And the point is that this thread is not meant to throw the “baby” out with the nasty bathwater.

As I have stated many times in this forum, it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm The religious choose a static story rather than being open to an ever-broadening of awareness. They choose death over life -- limits over expansiveness -- locking themselves down, rather than spreading their wings.

I am sure that you already know this, but other than in some random cases, I don’t think it’s so much that the adherents of any particular religion “choose” what they believe.

No, for it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.

Furthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”

And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...

...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.
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seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.

Thoroughly appreciate all of the thoughtful and sensible points you made in your post! I will respond as soon as I get a chance. Thanks.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm As I have stated many times in this forum, it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.

I agree. I am not sure, however, that most religions and their followers can be free enough from their stories and the payoffs of those stories -- to be clear and present enough to create/understand a new/different paradigm -- unless there is some kind of great undoing (and resulting awakening) to help them let go of what they're locked onto.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm The religious choose a static story rather than being open to an ever-broadening of awareness. They choose death over life -- limits over expansiveness -- locking themselves down, rather than spreading their wings.

I am sure that you already know this, but other than in some random cases, I don’t think it’s so much that the adherents of any particular religion “choose” what they believe.

No, for it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.

I can imagine it seems less escapable for those who live in situations of limited options and exposure. But many of us can and do think for ourselves much more freely (and we evolve in many ways over the course of our lifetimes). I admit that I've been shocked by the senseless zombie-like responses given by some people interviewed at Trump rallies -- because it is as if they have gleefully handed themselves over to a certain mindset without critically questioning/assessing anything for themselves. I guess this is how, in human history, armies of people have been able to follow crazed leadership/platforms down inexplicable paths. I thought we were beyond such things. Apparently not! Good to know. Group mentality seems very intoxicating.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pmFurthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”

I think I understand to a certain degree: I remember the turmoil I went through myself when realizing that everything I had been so sure of, was wrong or untrue. I remember the utter terror! I remember the existential threat to my ego and identity. But I simply could not "unsee" or go back... as much as I wanted to... when I realized there was a much larger "universe" of thought/potential than what I'd believed there was. I realized that my ego and my belief had been barriers to greater truth, so I needed to tell them to take a back seat -- and I became hungry for more and new information to learn about a broader landscape. I discovered a BOUNTY of information all around -- I only needed to be open to notice it. People on this forum have an opportunity to question things for themselves too. Some egos appear willing to be insane to insist on having the "highest" answers, which they suggest/claim that only they have.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...

...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.

Well, I totally appreciate what you're saying. I think it's important to note that I would not use a wrecking ball in person (unless it was really applicable)! But, here, we're on a forum (a stage) where the hardest of the hardcore come to preach their particular manic notions with full blinding and fanatic headgear on. Anything I say to them is what I would say to myself if I were doing and saying what they are doing and saying. Whatever hope and comfort they might actually need can be supported in so many places -- this forum is not one of them. So if people are HERE, I'm guessing they yearn for more challenge and truth, even if they put on a terrific show of resisting it. That offers a fantastic opportunity for others to express without restraint our own creative approach or onslaught -- and mine varies according to the person and the content/context. Aside from the entertainment value, it is truly my hope for people to consider/realize a freer and broader scope/universe for themselves (if they'd like that), even if they don't want to admit to it here.

Personally, I would be wary of plans or blueprints for a new paradigm, because those would likely have more unevolved agendas built on unevolved beliefs (if we're really not beyond doing that yet, in general). Clarity comes, rather (I think), from getting the noise/stories out of the way. In other words, it's probably not about what we can add on or switch to, but about what we can lift off of ourselves. Stories are like blankets piled on top of us. My beliefs are (more often, these days) sitting in the back seat with my ego (because I prefer being present, open, and flexible), although they both (beliefs and ego) take turns trying to jump into the front seat to drive. But it doesn't take long to see how that drives me into a ditch. Being freer of stuff piled onto me lightens everything up.

Everyone is free to think what makes sense to them, based on their surrounding influences/circumstances or not. Some may be afraid of having/acknowledging such freedom, and that's okay. But then they may have to work hard to maintain their limitations, and be less fulfilled by doing so. Maybe freedom from certain restrictions/distortions of belief and ego is not only a powerful tool/capability for humankind's and our own evolvement, but maybe it allows for more conscious creation and play while we're here? And how glorious might that be? If we can be loving and brave enough to embrace/accept such freedom and potential.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm As I have stated many times in this forum, it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm I agree. I am not sure, however, that most religions and their followers can be free enough from their stories and the payoffs of those stories -- to be clear and present enough to create/understand a new/different paradigm -- unless there is some kind of great undoing (and resulting awakening) to help them let go of what they're locked onto.

Doesn’t it seem as though we may be in the midst (or at least at the beginning stages) of a “great undoing” at this very moment?

However, instead of an “undoing,” I like to think of it as being a transitioning from one paradigm bubble to another. And until we completely pass-through the “blurry film,” so to speak, of the new bubble, confusion and chaos will reign.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm ...it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm I can imagine it seems less escapable for those who live in situations of limited options and exposure.

It’s not only that (and I’m not implying that it’s much different now), but until modern times, the majority of humans on earth were so preoccupied with the mere process of survival that they simply didn’t have the time (or the education, or the inclination) to develop their own theories regarding creation, or to question the authority of the “powers that be” and risk being an outcast.

Therefore, logically, the established religion in the region where they were born would be the “go-to” source for their spiritual knowledge.

The atheists knock religion, but the problem is that most humans have a conscience that oftentimes needs a means by which genuine (and painful) feelings of guilt (for whatever reason) can be softened or eliminated. In which case, religions (even though flawed and founded upon dubious origins) clearly provide that vital service to humans.

Not to mention the comfort and solace that religious ideas provide for the mourners at funerals, and for the sick.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm But many of us can and do think for ourselves much more freely (and we evolve in many ways over the course of our lifetimes). I admit that I've been shocked by the senseless zombie-like responses given by some people interviewed at Trump rallies...

Yes, and you are talking about millions of humans across the U.S.

Indeed, you have just highlighted (in what I bolded above) the near impossibility of reasoning with groups of humans who walk through life in an even deeper state of somnambulism than the rest of us.

I mean, if these people aren’t even awake enough to recognize a glaringly obvious wolf in sheep’s clothing,...

(a wolf that doesn’t even bother to wear the head part of his sheep costume )

...then any attempt to awaken them into higher levels of metaphysical understanding is a fool’s errand.

(Though we must keep trying in the hope that a “seed” of information may one day sprout and blossom.)

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm Furthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm I think I understand to a certain degree: I remember the turmoil I went through myself when realizing that everything I had been so sure of, was wrong or untrue. I remember the utter terror! I remember the existential threat to my ego and identity. But I simply could not "unsee" or go back... as much as I wanted to... when I realized there was a much larger "universe" of thought/potential than what I'd believed there was. I realized that my ego and my belief had been barriers to greater truth, so I needed to tell them to take a back seat -- and I became hungry for more and new information to learn about a broader landscape. I discovered a BOUNTY of information all around -- I only needed to be open to notice it...

That’s a great story, Lacewing, thanks for that.

And I too experienced a similar awakening to the realization of a larger universe.

However, instead of it being an awakening emerging from turmoil,...

(and with the help of a powerful entheogenic substance, along with what seemed to be a perfectly timed delivery of news regarding the death of a loved one)

...mine was spectacularly wonderful, for it felt like a window had opened between the material world and the spiritual world – a window that (in time) allowed me to peer into what (I think) awaits us on the other side of the proverbial “veil.”

(Btw, I’m not so lost in my beliefs that I am beyond realizing that I could be wrong.)

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...

...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm Personally, I would be wary of plans or blueprints for a new paradigm, because those would likely have more unevolved agendas built on unevolved beliefs...

Alluding back to my earlier comment on how the majority of people on earth simply do not have the time, or the inclination, or the mental wherewithal (consider the Trump crowd, for example) to explore the mysteries of reality, then the creation of new and formalized spiritual edifices...

(i.e., new spiritual concepts that, hopefully, are much more logical than the ones being replaced)

...are still going to be something that humans continue to rely on.

And even though they (the new concepts) may still fall short of the ultimate truth, as long as they can replace the old paradigm nonsense of Hells, and demons, and realms of eternal torture that the occupants of Heaven are perfectly fine with, then it will be a step in the right direction.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

Right back at ya! And be careful what you ask for!
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seeds wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:25 pm _______

In response to gaffo, Age, and DAM...

According to Wiki:

Wiki wrote: In religion and folklore, Hell is an afterlife location in which evil souls are subjected to punitive suffering, often torture as eternal punishment after death. Religions with a linear divine history often depict hells as eternal destinations, the biggest examples of which are Christianity and Islam...

(Note that according to religious dogma, a hell-bound “evil soul” is anyone who rejects Jesus as their personal savior, or rejects the teachings of Islam.)

The OP question was directed at the Christians and Muslims (or anyone else) who ACTUALLY BELIEVE in the existence of Heaven and Hell as they are often depicted in the ancillary lore of their corresponding religions.

The OP sets-up a very simple premise that asks what one who was lucky enough (pious enough) to make it into Heaven would do if they were given the option of sacrificing their eternal life in Heaven in order to save a loved one who is suffering in Hell.

Unfortunately, all of the contributors to the thread thus far appear to be neither Christians nor Muslims nor anyone who believes in the existence of Hell, and are therefore sidetracking the purpose of the OP with their comments.

Now if someone wants to create a thread where we can all debate the absurdity of Hell, then I will be at the top of the list of those who will offer arguments as to just how ridiculous the idea of Hell actually is, as is depicted in one of my personal illustrations below...



And just in case the dialogue in the caption bubbles is too small or blurry to read, then here is a rundown of what is being said:

Little girl: “Please help me daddy, they’re hurting me! Please daddy, help me!”

Dad: “Sorry punkin, but daddy’s in heaven now and heaven wouldn’t be ‘perfect’ if I had to worry about you....Besides, we told you what would happen if you didn’t believe in ‘our’ concept of God....By the way, how’s your grandma doing?...Oh never mind, why should I care?...I’m in heaven.”

God: “After she has suffered a billion years of unspeakable burning agony, she’ll be sorry she ignored me....I will then continue her torture throughout all eternity....Does anyone doubt the fairness of my judgment?”

1st angel: “Your fairness and mercy are without equal.”

2nd angel: “In the name of love she’s getting exactly what she deserves.”

And, of course, beneath the daughter and the demons is not Satan, but God; the creator and sustainer of all realities - including Hell.

And yes, all of that is utterly ridiculous, yet it is precisely what all of the hellfire and brimstone preachers of Christianity and Islam must accept as being possible if Heaven and Hell are real destinations of the human soul.

Clearly, I am still waiting for a Hell-believing Christian or Muslim to demonstrate the courage of their convictions and chime-in on this subject.
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Emmanual Kan/Can is a Christian, and a good fellow with a heart and mind. I think you might consider PM-ing him and point him to this thread for him to give his views on this matter.

your original question is brilliant - for its about Love for another - and its apt!

your cartoon above is also brilliant and address the same question (obviosly) - you may know about the similar account mentioned in Gosple of Luke about one in Heaven taking pity upon the other in Hell (Lazerus)...........and god saying in effect, you take pity in vain for i placed a wall bet heaven and hell that will never be cross-able.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:40 pm I agree with gaffo...

I have no problem with Hell as a place to serve a sentence for sins.

...the catholics have such a penalty box: limbo I think they call it.

Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle wrote a couple of novels wherein hell was much like the catholic limbo. You could leave when ready to.

Hell, as last stop, irrevocable end point: nah.

Niven wrote his version of Dante's inferno where Benetto Musalini(sp) was a guide to the main character who died and found himself in Hell.


I read the work 30 yrs ago (it was good - as was the original work by Dante - which i read shorty before Niven's work). I do not remember the title of the work sadly.

I always liked Nivens works - from Ringworld/Ringworld Engineers to the Protector mythos (humans are just protectors without the puberty) - along with the Kizn(sp) - born killer type alliens, which via being too ginned up to actually think strategically (going all bonzi - 3 wars in a row) - ended up being "breed" less bonzi by the 4th encounter with humans (so evolution in practice via the more docile - those not on the frontlines in the 3 wars with man - ended up breeding and able to make peace with humans).

and of course the Puppeteers with the technology to move their planet (and with a small artifical sun to keep it warm) out from the exploding Galactic core- the herbavores with no heads - brain in the body instead - with only one sentient sex - the male (I love that!!!! lol) - the female not being sentient, but just a womb to impregnate.

of course i've not read any of Niven's works since the late 80's and my memory is poor so i'm sure many of my above statements are "off"/wrong.

- i read "the mote in god's eye" was that the title? - too (a collaboration with Pournelle) - not as good as Niven's sole works IMO.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:48 pm the catholics have such a penalty box: limbo I think they call it.

I'm wrong.

Limbo is where unbaptized infants go.

Purgatory is the penalty box.

thanks for clarification - I always welcome knowledge!

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:26 pm Just out of curiosity, though, name a few “sins” that you think warrant a stint in Hell.

There's only one, as I reckon it: deprivin' a person of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.

do you equate those three equally? I don't

just asking here.

you think a thief is as bad (actions are as bad/immoral/whatever) - as a murder?

i don't.

I got burgled twice, lost a TV - only 5 yrs ago, i do not think the thief that took my TV while i was out at walmart is equal to one that kills someone.

do you?

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:33 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:27 pm
...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?

In other words,...

(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)

...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?
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Not at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!

That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.

There is the bigger picture per Religionists (they affirm eternal life yes?) that means no-one dies (their soul never dies).

and so lets look at this logically - assuming we all are immoral (our souls are) - per Religionist view.

so in fact if we are place here on this planet for a VERY short time - 80 yrs or 8 yrs (compared to eternity as an immortal soul after corporial death via the short span).

then all actions here on earth are 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the timeline of the immortal soul.

so why would one's actions while on Earth - good or ill matter? if this life is only 0.0000000000000000000000000000001 percent of said souls life?

to me it seems nonsense, logically any actions - good/bad/"sins" or rightious conduct of said souls OUTSIDE OF THIS LIFE ON EARTH would make up 99.99999999999999 percent of said souls actions in the other "after death" realm.

now if each person had a corporial lifespan of a billion yrs or so (30-percent of the timeline of our universe), then maybe the actions we take here and the "Sins" we commit here on earth would matter via the timeline of our immortal souls.

maybe.

but we do not live a billion yrs on earth, and so any sins we commit here are litterally irrelivent to the larger picture of immortality and freewil of post death souls post o-day of death on earth to a trillion yrs into the future.