Philosophy Now Forum

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:32 pm If you are not enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

I would say that I enjoy my life, however, I still think there's something wrong with my philosophy.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:35 am How long have you been able to read minds and know what other's do and do not experience and know?

How long have you been in possession of irrefutable knowledge that life cannot exist independently of a material organism?

Likewise, how long have you been in possession of, again, irrefutable knowledge that the life we are experiencing - here and now - is the only life one will ever have?

The point is that one does not need to be a mind reader to recognize when another person is making claims that they couldn’t possibly know were true or not.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:35 am I have no idea what your conscious experience is. If you say it is dream-like illusion, I'll take your word for it. (I'm sorry for you if that is the case.) It is not my experience.

Yes, it is not your experience, and that was my point. A sleepwalker is not aware of the fact the he is not fully awake.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:35 am I'm also sorry for you if your thinking is something you've been tricked into having. It is going to be difficult to take seriously your ideas since your thoughts are only things some illusions have fooled him into believing. But I'll take your word for it.

Likewise, it is difficult to take your ideas seriously when it is obvious that you are so thoroughly under the thrall of the illusion of objective reality.

Now I do not mean that as an insult, because we’re all in the same boat when it comes to being fooled by the universe. It’s just that some of us are at least aware of the fact that something fishy is going on.

The bottom line is that if you do expect to be taken seriously, then you might not want to present your beliefs (your assumptions) about reality with such an air of infallible certainty.
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:14 am Likewise, it is difficult to take your ideas seriously ...

That's good. I neither expect or want you to.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:14 am we’re all in the same boat when it comes to being fooled by the universe. It’s just that some of us are at least aware of the fact that something fishy is going on.

Why do you think that's awareness rather than imagination?

Couldn't it be that everything is perfectly organic beyond the suspicious and limited minds of humans?

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:14 am we’re all in the same boat when it comes to being fooled by the universe. It’s just that some of us are at least aware of the fact that something fishy is going on.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:13 pm Why do you think that's awareness rather than imagination?

Couldn't it be that everything is perfectly organic beyond the suspicious and limited minds of humans?

HI Lacewing,

First, let me offer my apologies to RC for dragging his thread topic off onto a tangent. But he made some knowledge and truth claims that I was compelled to challenge (it’s what we do on a philosophy forum).

And clearly, in order for him to “enjoy his life,” he prefers to retreat from such challenges.

Anyway, I think it is awareness for the simple reason that through my studies and, especially, my personal experiences, it is something I have become “aware” of.

For instance, if you look deep into the implications of quantum theory you will (or, at least, you should) realize that the fabric of matter appears to be made of the very essence of imagination itself.

In other words, the stars, planets, oceans, trees, bodies, brains, etc., seem to be made from a substance that is capable of becoming absolutely anything “imaginable” (as in “mindstuff”).

Don’t you find that remarkable and worthy of deeper examination as to why that is so?

Now how about you tell me what you mean when you ask about the possibility of everything being “perfectly organic”?
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:14 am A sleepwalker is not aware of the fact the he is not fully awake.

Just out of curiosity, how does one know a sleepwalker is not aware he is not fully awake if one does not know what, "fully awake," means? If one does not know what, "actual reality is," how does one know what they are experiencing is not it? What are they comparing it to?

A professor once asked me, "how do you know you are not dreaming?" I asked him, "what is a dream?"

I'm not making an argument, I'm truly curious how people come to your view. It was Plato's as well. Always wished I could ask him how he knew what a cave was.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:14 am we’re all in the same boat when it comes to being fooled by the universe. It’s just that some of us are at least aware of the fact that something fishy is going on.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:13 pm Why do you think that's awareness rather than imagination?

Couldn't it be that everything is perfectly organic beyond the suspicious and limited minds of humans?

HI Lacewing

Hi

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmI think it is awareness for the simple reason that through my studies and, especially, my personal experiences, it is something I have become “aware” of.

What people say they're aware of, differs between people, though, right? I am more aware of the human "noise" (and stories) added on top of basic nature, than of anything fishy going on in the universe. Maybe you can explain more about this awareness you have?

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmFor instance, if you look deep into the implications of quantum theory you will (or, at least, you should) realize that the fabric of matter appears to be made of the very essence of imagination itself.

Sure, okay.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmIn other words, the stars, planets, oceans, trees, bodies, brains, etc., seem to be made from a substance that is capable of becoming absolutely anything “imaginable” (as in “mindstuff”).

I can see that.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmDon’t you find that remarkable and worthy of deeper examination as to why that is so?

I find it remarkable... but I don't think it matters why it is so. I care more about what I can do with it.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmNow how about you tell me what you mean when you ask about the possibility of everything being “perfectly organic”?

Sorry, that probably isn't the best word. What I mean is "natural" and "whole". All of it... nothing separate. All of it... playing out and exploring. Vast creativity/imagination manifesting endless possibilities. Nothing separate that is tricking "us" -- rather, we trick ourselves and play games with ourselves, and that's part of the natural whole of vast creativity/imagination.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:13 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:14 am we’re all in the same boat when it comes to being fooled by the universe. It’s just that some of us are at least aware of the fact that something fishy is going on.

Why do you think that's awareness rather than imagination?

That's exactly what it is, and as mystical as any religion.

"... the fabric of matter appears to be made of the very essence of imagination itself..." and "the stars, planets, oceans, trees, bodies, brains, etc., seem to be made from a substance that is capable of becoming absolutely anything 'imaginable' (as in 'mindstuff')," is pure mystic supernaturalism couched in pseudo-scientific language.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:02 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:32 pm If you are not enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

I would say that I enjoy my life, however, I still think there's something wrong with my philosophy.

To whatever extent your philosophy is determining your thinking and choices which result in your enjoying your life, your philosophy is correct. We're always learning more, of course, but we should build on what experience has shown us is true.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:12 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:02 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:32 pm If you are not enjoying your life there is something wrong with your philosophy.

I would say that I enjoy my life, however, I still think there's something wrong with my philosophy.

To whatever extent your philosophy is determining your thinking and choices which result in your enjoying your life, your philosophy is correct. We're always learning more, of course, but we should build on what experience has shown us is true.

I suppose you have a valid point. I live and continually learn but overall my philosophy is more or less "live and let live" (as much as possible). It seems to be only when I stray from that philosophy that things turn sour. It's difficult sometimes to stay true to it, though, especially with the news media's fixation on bad news.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:14 am A sleepwalker is not aware of the fact the he is not fully awake.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:32 pm Just out of curiosity, how does one know a sleepwalker is not aware he is not fully awake if one does not know what, "fully awake," means?

Well, “fully awake” in this particular context means being fully conscious and in control of one's thoughts (as such is experienced by humans during waking hours), as opposed to the level of consciousness one exists at while asleep and dreaming, wherein one is not in control of one's thoughts.

Additionally, another comparison of levels of wakefulness (or degrees of consciousness) can be seen in comparing the level of consciousness of an amoeba to that of a fly.
Or that of the level of a fly to that of a frog.
Or that of the level of a frog to that of a dog.
Or that of the level of a dog to that of a human.

To which some of us then ask: why are we assuming that this ascending ladder of consciousness (or wakefulness) stops at the human level? Why not at least be open to the possibility that it keeps on going upward into yet a higher level of consciousness - as is depicted in the following illustrations...

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:32 pm If one does not know what, "actual reality is," how does one know what they are experiencing is not it? What are they comparing it to?

Some of us (for whatever reason) believe we have caught intuitive glimpses of what we think (right or wrong) are higher levels of reality. And that is what we are comparing it to.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:32 pm A professor once asked me, "how do you know you are not dreaming?" I asked him, "what is a dream?"

I'm not making an argument, I'm truly curious how people come to your view. It was Plato's as well. Always wished I could ask him how he knew what a cave was.

From my own personal perspective, I suggest that the cave Plato was referring to is alluding to the level of consciousness that humans function at while being trapped on a lower rung of the ladder, as compared to what exists at the highest rung of the ladder.

Do you believe that humans function at a higher level of consciousness than amoebas? If yes, then at least consider the possibility that a similar chasm may exist between us and that which ascends above us.

And the point is (as it relates to Plato’s cave) is that the ultimate conditions and truths upon which that higher level of reality is founded could make our own level of reality seem like a mere “shadow” in comparison.
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm I think it is awareness for the simple reason that through my studies and, especially, my personal experiences, it is something I have become “aware” of.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm What people say they're aware of, differs between people, though, right? I am more aware of the human "noise" (and stories) added on top of basic nature, than of anything fishy going on in the universe. Maybe you can explain more about this awareness you have?

First of all, Lacewing, I cannot begin to express how much I appreciate your beautiful spirit. You are one of the few members of this forum who tries to bring a sense of congeniality and light to the conversations (at least to the ones that do not descend into a flaming pit of cussing and mudslinging ). I cannot help but think that you’re an old hippie like me (maybe not so old though ).

Anyway, with that being said, you are correct to point out that what people are aware of comes in diverse forms. I mean, good god, just look at the difference in “awareness” between a Trump supporter and that of someone who is even remotely awake to the absurdity of it all.

And when it comes to me explaining more about my alleged awareness, the only way that you could truly apprehend the explanation is if you were somehow able to enter into my mind and experience the events of my life from a first person perspective (and, of course, the reverse of that applies to me apprehending your state of mind).

So seeing how that can never happen, all I can do is keep posting my ideas while hoping that the gist of what I am aware of is conveyed (not that any of it matters that much).

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm In other words, the stars, planets, oceans, trees, bodies, brains, etc., seem to be made from a substance that is capable of becoming absolutely anything “imaginable” (as in “mindstuff”).

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm I can see that.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm Don’t you find that remarkable and worthy of deeper examination as to why that is so?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm I find it remarkable... but I don't think it matters why it is so. I care more about what I can do with it.

Okay, but don’t you agree that understanding “why it is so” might be valuable to those of us who are interested in resolving the mystery of reality?

Can we not pursue both paths while comparing notes along the way?

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm Now how about you tell me what you mean when you ask about the possibility of everything being “perfectly organic”?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm Sorry, that probably isn't the best word. What I mean is "natural" and "whole". All of it... nothing separate. All of it... playing out and exploring. Vast creativity/imagination manifesting endless possibilities. Nothing separate that is tricking "us" -- rather, we trick ourselves and play games with ourselves, and that's part of the natural whole of vast creativity/imagination.

That’s all wonderful sounding stuff, Lacewing, but can you offer me a logical explanation of what aspect of the “natural” and the “whole” and the “us” grasped the mind-like fabric of reality and formed it into trillions upon trillions of suns and planets? Do you honestly feel like you, as an aggregate member of the self-tricking “us,” personally had something to do with that process?

Furthermore, in what way does your interpretation of reality offer a glimmer of hope (for the billions of humans who crave such hope) that there may be more to life than the purely nihilistic offerings of RC’s hardcore materialism?

Btw, I suggest that it’s not a malicious “tricking” taking place. It is a tricking that is in place for our own good.
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seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:27 pm Do you believe that humans function at a higher level of consciousness than amoebas? If yes, then at least consider the possibility that a similar chasm may exist between us and that which ascends above us?

We're not going to agree, but I wanted to answer that question, for the record, so to speak.

I'm not sure singe-celled organism (prokaryotes) have true consciousness. There is some kind of sentience which necessary for life, but true consciousness begins with multi-celled animals (eukaryotes). There are not different kinds of consciousness and the consciousness of insects, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals (including human beings) is the same kind of consciousness. It is called perception.

There is huge difference between all other oganisms and human beings, but it is not a difference in consciousness, it a difference what determines their behavior. All organisms except human beings behave as their instinctive nature determines. Human being have no instinct but have in it's place a volitional mind which makes both possible and necessary conscious choice (volition) the gaining and storage of knowledge (intellect) and the ability to ask and answer questions and make judgments (rationality).

There is absolutely no reason to suppose there is any other kind of consciousness. If there were anything that was so different no one could be conscious of it, it could not possibly matter. If there is anything that actually matters (has some affect on our actual experience) then we are conscious of it.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:16 pm First of all, Lacewing, I cannot begin to express how much I appreciate your beautiful spirit. You are one of the few members of this forum who tries to bring a sense of congeniality and light to the conversations (at least to the ones that do not descend into a flaming pit of cussing and mudslinging ). I cannot help but think that you’re an old hippie like me (maybe not so old though ).

Thank you, seeds! I'm glad you can see my intentions and where I'm coming from. I do get a bit rowdy with a few people here because of the crazy things they say -- and it makes me laugh so much to respond to them! Yes, I've got a hippie spirit.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmIn other words, the stars, planets, oceans, trees, bodies, brains, etc., seem to be made from a substance that is capable of becoming absolutely anything “imaginable” (as in “mindstuff”).

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm I can see that.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm Don’t you find that remarkable and worthy of deeper examination as to why that is so?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm I find it remarkable... but I don't think it matters why it is so. I care more about what I can do with it.

Okay, but don’t you agree that understanding “why it is so” might be valuable to those of us who are interested in resolving the mystery of reality?

I think that people should explore whatever brings them meaning. I just don't think it's possible to know that answer, and thereby understand it. It's fascinating to consider, for sure. I would liken it to an ant wanting to understand the sun. It seems to me that we may be who we are in these physical forms because we chose to do this (maybe not consciously like humans, but as part of a natural flow), in order to manifest in this way and have these experiences. And doing that involves physical and awareness limitations. Then a lot of us spend our days wanting to stretch beyond those limitations (as if we could) -- which could undo/disrupt the beauty of the fantasy/dream/flow.

It reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode where anyone who hears the secret of life whispered to them, goes insane. Or something like that. Is there a line that we can draw between the exploration of ideas and obsession with ideas? Seems like humans tend to take their ideas ("need to know") farther than necessary, and then they start catering to it, and limiting themselves from seeing/exploring anything else, while obsessing over what's "wrong/bad".

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmCan we not pursue both paths while comparing notes along the way?

Yes, sure!

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:16 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm Now how about you tell me what you mean when you ask about the possibility of everything being “perfectly organic”?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:51 pm Sorry, that probably isn't the best word. What I mean is "natural" and "whole". All of it... nothing separate. All of it... playing out and exploring. Vast creativity/imagination manifesting endless possibilities. Nothing separate that is tricking "us" -- rather, we trick ourselves and play games with ourselves, and that's part of the natural whole of vast creativity/imagination.

That’s all wonderful sounding stuff, Lacewing, but can you offer me a logical explanation of what aspect of the “natural” and the “whole” and the “us” grasped the mind-like fabric of reality and formed it into trillions upon trillions of suns and planets?

I think there's a bigger FLOW that we're part of like everything else... and that flow just does what it does... no thinking required. Just like nature flows... sometimes driven/compelled... interacting with and influenced by other aspects of nature. Like a vast ocean of waves and currents, and life appearing and disappearing within it. No agenda. Just natural drives and rhythms, creation, rising and falling. And maybe the rest of what I say below will expand on my answer to this as well.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pmDo you honestly feel like you, as an aggregate member of the self-tricking “us,” personally had something to do with that process?

If I understand correctly what you're asking, I would say that I think we are functioning from different levels and depths, not just from the physical forms we represent. There's nobody/nothing separate messing with us, rather it's that which we are fully part of that is exploring and playing along different paths.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 pm Furthermore, in what way does your interpretation of reality offer a glimmer of hope (for the billions of humans who crave such hope) that there may be more to life than the purely nihilistic offerings of RC’s hardcore materialism?

Love these questions. For me, peace of mind comes from feeling/"knowing"/accepting that everything is FINE and perfect and beautiful and flowing and magnificent. When we look at a rushing river, and hear the sound of it, and consider its power... we are in awe, and we would likely consider it as all of these things I just said. Even though within that current, things are getting smashed against rocks... and lifeforms are being destroyed or eaten... and there may even be some suffering... but the river is not intentionally doing any of that, it's just flowing magnificently. If we can consider being part of a larger flow (as many ancient earthy people did), rather than identifying with these physical forms and all of their individual nits, then we become more harmonious with a larger symphony. I think it can be kind of crazy when we live in our heads and egos, and take our humanness too seriously. Our individual forms are not that important in the bigger scheme of things. Rather, we have an opportunity to see what we can contribute with our energy to the web of creation in the present moment. Like surfing the waves. There's no destination or ultimate purpose, other than having fun in the moment and seeing what we can do with it.

Sorry if my explanations fall short or miss the mark. It's challenging to try to describe the indescribable. And I'm kinda tired as I write this. Peace to you.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:34 am Sorry if my explanations fall short or miss the mark. It's challenging to try to describe the indescribable. And I'm kinda tired as I write this. Peace to you.

Yes, it is very challenging to describe the indescribable (not to mention, I asked you some questions that I knew would be impossible to answer ).

Nevertheless, thank you, Lacewing. As always, you provide an uplifting and positive outlook on reality.

Peace to you also.
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