Philosophy Now Forum

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:37 am

PeteOlcott wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:40 pm

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:37 pm To repeat: what and where are abstract things, and in what way do they exist? Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exist'.

'Ah, but how can you believe in justice, if you think abstract things don't exist?'

Dammit. Got me there. Game over. (Ffs.)

All ideas are abstract things including the idea of the question that you just asked.

Okay. But what and where are abstract things, such as ideas,

Right there that was one.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:37 am Of course, like statements, commands and exclamations - the other clause functions - questions are real things: sequences of sounds, marks on paper or screen, signing gestures, and so on. None of these is abstract.

Gejhedhge dhdylsjdjnxmiazmhfo danwimxn?

PeteOlcott wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:04 pm

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:37 am

PeteOlcott wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:40 pm

All ideas are abstract things including the idea of the question that you just asked.

Okay. But what and where are abstract things, such as ideas,

Right there that was one.

I missed it. Can you point it out?

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:29 pm I missed it. Can you point it out?

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:37 pm Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exists'.

No equivocation there - it's your abstract word.

Words are real things: sounds, marks on paper or screen, signing gestures, and so on. There aren't any abstract words. Der.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:03 pm Words are real things: sounds, marks on paper or screen, signing gestures, and so on. There aren't any abstract words. Der.

What does that mean?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:10 pm

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:29 pm I missed it. Can you point it out?

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:37 pm Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exists'.

No equivocation there - it's your abstract word.

I read an earlier answer of yours that was reasonable. I attributed the
unreasonableness to the wrong person, sorry.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:03 pm Words are real things: sounds, marks on paper or screen, signing gestures, and so on. There aren't any abstract words. Der.

There are physically existing things and things that do not physically exist.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:02 pm

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:03 pm Words are real things: sounds, marks on paper or screen, signing gestures, and so on. There aren't any abstract words. Der.

What does that mean?

Many people get confused and believe that things that do not exist physically do not exist at all.

PeteOlcott wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:30 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:02 pm

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:03 pm Words are real things: sounds, marks on paper or screen, signing gestures, and so on. There aren't any abstract words. Der.

What does that mean?

Many people get confused and believe that things that do not exist physically do not exist at all.

Many people believe in the existence of non-physical or abstract things without bothering to examine the belief.

What and where are non-physical things, and in what way do they exist? Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exist' - and without an appeal to mysticism.

One example will do. Thanks.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:08 am Many people believe in the existence of non-physical or abstract things without bothering to examine the belief.

What and where are non-physical things, and in what way do they exist? Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exist' - and without an appeal to mysticism.

One example will do. Thanks.

You keep providing your own examples, Peter.

Surely the word "belief" (as you use it) has a referent, else you wouldn't use it?

What and where are your beliefs? How do you examine your own beliefs if they don't exist?

What? We have beliefs, and we can examine them.

So of course beliefs exist. What are you talking about?

Okay. If beliefs are things that exist, what are where are they, and in what way do they exist? Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exist', and without an appeal to mysticism.

Hint: 'of course they exist' doesn't answer the question.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:57 am What? We have beliefs, and we can examine them.

What? There is no "we" here! YOU have beliefs and YOU can examine your beliefs.

Obviously. Because YOUR beliefs exist.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:57 am So of course beliefs exist. What are you talking about?

You are asking US questions about YOUR beliefs.

You are asking US questions that you can answer BY YOURSELF.

Why?

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:57 am Okay. If beliefs are things that exist,

Huh?!? You literally just said "of course beliefs exist". Why are you saying "IF" in the very next sentence?!?

You were so certain and then you uncertained yourself.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:57 am Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exist', and without an appeal to mysticism.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:57 am Hint: 'of course they exist' doesn't answer the question.

What a stupid fucking request!!!!

There is only ONE unequivocal use of "existence" and that is the way in which beliefs exist.

Of course it answers the question! You insisted on an answer WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION.

If YOU believe that there are "multiple ways" of existence then YOU are equivocating existence.

For the intellectually challenged interpreter - the dramatisation made explicit.

Metaphysician: 'What? We have beliefs, and we can examine them. So of course beliefs exist. What are you talking about?'

Anti-metaphysician: 'Okay. If beliefs are things that exist, what are where are they, and in what way do they exist? Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exist', and without an appeal to mysticism. Hint: 'of course they exist' doesn't answer the question.'

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:13 am For the intellectually challenged interpreter - the dramatisation made explicit.

Metaphysician: 'What? We have beliefs, and we can examine them. So of course beliefs exist. What are you talking about?'

Anti-metaphysician: 'Okay. If beliefs are things that exist, what are where are they, and in what way do they exist? Answers, please, without equivocation on 'thing' and 'exist', and without an appeal to mysticism. Hint: 'of course they exist' doesn't answer the question.'

Peter,

YOU are the one arguing FOR the Metaphysicians ( beliefs exist ).
YOU are also the one arguing FOR the Anti-metaphysicians (beliefs don't exist).

You seem conflicted, have you considered the possibility that you suffer from Schizophrenia?

There is absolutely no need for dramatisation. Either YOUR beliefs exist or they don't. Which one is it?

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:37 am (To save time: abstract things aren't things that exist anywhere, which is why no one can ever answer my question without equivocation and further mystification. But the metaphysical delusion runs deep and strong.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:57 am So of course beliefs exist.

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:13 am If beliefs are things that exist