Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:08 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:27 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:31 pm Suppose otherwise: Anything which cannot be created can be annihilated. Suppose such a thing annihilates. The process of annihilation when it is looked at reverse is like creation. This means that following such a process the thing one can be created. We start with the assumption that the thing cannot be created. This is contrary.

That's what conservation laws in physics are.

They follow from Noether's theorem

I agree with that. But that is about matter. Here I am talking about mind.

When did you exclude everything other than mind from being anything?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:05 pm Why? Each person has internal states. Therefore, there are different minds.

I think you are confused about your definition of mind.
You say that there is only one "real thing": mind
And then you go on and say that each person has a different, separate mind...
Its either or - not both: either there is only one mind and so called "persons" appear as ideas, as creations of, this mind (just like in a dream where mind is the whole dream and all sorts of different characters appear within this dream - within the dream they don't have a separate mind of their own, yet they appear and act as if they did...) - or there are different minds/separate things, and thus more than one "real thing" - you can't have it both...

By the way: Have you found this person that has a mind in your direct experience (with this I mean: within the arena of direct, sensual experience, and not in thoughts about the experience) - how is this person being experienced? how is the mind experienced? And, most importantly: WHO is the separate one that experiences these separate entities?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:05 pm Yes. There is mind and matter. But our subject of discussion is mind not matter.

There is no matter without mind.
Mind defines/creates (the idea of) matter.
No mind, no matter

See, everything we can talk about are only thoughts, they are ideas - mind is an idea, matter is an idea, I is an idea, you is an idea.
Pinch your arm, feel that? This sensation is not an idea. But: To interpret it as: I have pinched my arm - this is an idea - it is not real, the sensation of *pinch* is real. All else - mind and matter included - is acquired knowledge, not more than ideas - they are nice and helpful for communication, but there is no reality hidden inside of them.
Reality needs no explanation - quite the opposite: once you explain you move away from it.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:58 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:54 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:33 pm
The mind cannot be created because it is irreducible. It is irreducible because it can freely decide. One example.


How do you know? Minds have been existing since the beginning.


Can we focus on the argument?

You have no argument.
All you have is an obviously false premise.
Mind is created and destoryed.
I can destroy your mind with a bic pen.
I can create and mind through sex with a woman.

Mind is attached to matter in all its form.

False. Prove it!

Human body is one form of matter. But there is mind who decides.

False. Prove it!

Therefore, you have human, mind and body.

False dichotomy. Prove it!

Matter is determistic object and cannot possibly ends up in a state which can freely decide.

What do you mean "free"?
Mind is wholly determined by the brain that generates it.
Your brain is faulty; therefore you mind is confused.
One day you will die and your mind will die too.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:04 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:08 pm I agree with that. But that is about matter. Here I am talking about mind.

What's the difference between mind and matter?

There are minds, they interact through the medium of matter.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:39 pm There are minds, they interact through the medium of matter.

You haven't answered the question.

What's the difference between minds and matter.

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:55 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:05 pm Why? Each person has internal states. Therefore, there are different minds.

I think you are confused about your definition of mind.

No, mind is the essence o f any being with the ability to experience, freely decide, and cause.

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:55 am You say that there is only one "real thing": mind

I didn't say so. I said mind is real.

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:55 am And then you go on and say that each person has a different, separate mind...

Of course, we do. there are at least two of us who intellectually discuss with each other.

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:55 am Its either or - not both: either there is only one mind and so called "persons" appear as ideas, as creations of, this mind (just like in a dream where mind is the whole dream and all sorts of different characters appear within this dream - within the dream they don't have a separate mind of their own, yet they appear and act as if they did...) - or there are different minds/separate things, and thus more than one "real thing" - you can't have it both...

There are at least two of us.

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:55 am By the way: Have you found this person that has a mind in your direct experience (with this I mean: within the arena of direct, sensual experience, and not in thoughts about the experience) - how is this person being experienced? how is the mind experienced? And, most importantly: WHO is the separate one that experiences these separate entities?

No there is direct experience of another mind. I deduce it.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:05 pm Yes. There is mind and matter. But our subject of discussion is mind not matter.

There is no matter without mind.
Mind defines/creates (the idea of) matter.
No mind, no matter
[/quote]
Matter is a substance. It is something which is between us.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:05 pm See, everything we can talk about are only thoughts, they are ideas - mind is an idea, matter is an idea, I is an idea, you is an idea.

If we call everything that we experience as ideas, then we have to accept that we there are internal and external ideas. Matter and thoughts are those ideas. Ideas are however substance, they have to be a substance otherwise we could distinguish them from each other through theier difference, so-called form.

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:55 am Pinch your arm, feel that? This sensation is not an idea. But: To interpret it as: I have pinched my arm - this is an idea - it is not real, the sensation of *pinch* is real. All else - mind and matter included - is acquired knowledge, not more than ideas - they are nice and helpful for communication, but there is no reality hidden inside of them.
Reality needs no explanation - quite the opposite: once you explain you move away from it.

The reality, of course, needs an explanation.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:46 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:39 pm There are minds, they interact through the medium of matter.

You haven't answered the question.

What's the difference between minds and matter.

One is visible with the physical eye, while the other is not. Which one is which I think does not need pointing out.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:19 pm One is visible with the physical eye, while the other is not. Which one is which I think does not need pointing out.

Neither is visible with the physical eye alone. You also need a visual cortex

You need a brain to see a brain.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:51 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:58 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:54 pm
You have no argument.
All you have is an obviously false premise.
Mind is created and destoryed.
I can destroy your mind with a bic pen.
I can create and mind through sex with a woman.

Mind is attached to matter in all its form.

False. Prove it!

Human body is one form of matter. But there is mind who decides.

False. Prove it!

True. That is not the subject of the thread.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Therefore, you have human, mind and body.

False dichotomy. Prove it!

No. This is not the subject of this thread.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Matter is determistic object and cannot possibly ends up in a state which can freely decide.

What do you mean "free"?

Free of external constraint. For example, we can decide freely.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:54 pm Mind is wholly determined by the brain that generates it.

There is no emergence. Minds obviously are not determined by matter. They can freely decide.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:54 pm Your brain is faulty; therefore you mind is confused.
One day you will die and your mind will die too.

These are off topics.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:46 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:39 pm There are minds, they interact through the medium of matter.

You haven't answered the question.

What's the difference between minds and matter.

Mind is the essence of any being with the ability to experience, freely decide, and cause. Matter is the thing that mind acts upon. Commnication between us is possible because of matter which is a substance since it has form.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:42 pm Mind is the essence of any being with the ability to experience, freely decide, and cause. Matter is the thing that mind acts upon. Commnication between us is possible because of matter which is a substance since it has form.

What is mind made of if not matter?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:21 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:19 pm One is visible with the physical eye, while the other is not. Which one is which I think does not need pointing out.

Neither is visible with the physical eye alone. You also need a visual cortex

You need a brain to see a brain.

You also need to be alive.

You need an alive brain to see a brain. But like the 'visual cortex' this did not really need stating either. You asked a clarifying question, so I just answered it, with clarity.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:46 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:21 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:19 pm One is visible with the physical eye, while the other is not. Which one is which I think does not need pointing out.

Neither is visible with the physical eye alone. You also need a visual cortex

You need a brain to see a brain.

You also need to be alive.

You need an alive brain to see a brain. But like the 'visual cortex' this did not really need stating either. You asked a clarifying question, so I just answered it, with clarity.

And I clarified to you that "seeing" doesn't happen in your eyes.

Seeing happens in the thing you can't see.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:46 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:42 pm Mind is the essence of any being with the ability to experience, freely decide, and cause. Matter is the thing that mind acts upon. Commnication between us is possible because of matter which is a substance since it has form.

What is mind made of if not matter?

It is you.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:06 pm It is you.

What are you made of if not matter?