Philosophy Now Forum

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:26 am And who determines good character?

What constitutes good character is decided by God, of course. But it's a human duty to discern when they're looking at it, and when they're not. And as the passage says, you know what kind of character a person has by what he/she does.

There's a huge misunderstanding that a lot of people have about works. Some say they are salvific...that they are the way one earns heaven. That is wrong. Others say that works do not earn heaven, which is correct; but then they go on to say, therefore works mean nothing at all...and that's also wrong.

Fruit are the evidence of the true nature of the plant. They are not, themselves, that plant's life, but a product of it. They reveal the plant's nature, though, and tell us what kind of life it has.

I C

What constitutes good character is decided by God, of course. But it's a human duty to discern when they're looking at it, and when they're not. And as the passage says, you know what kind of character a person has by what he/she does.

I think you are overestimating both the ability and the desire to discern. Secularized Christianity or Christendom is replete with frauds making money off of people with a need to believe to the degree that they are easily taken advantage of. Take a fake Christian charity for example. On the surface it seems nice but when the money is stolen we see what it really is. Separating the wheat from the tares isn't so easy.

But again, the shame of modern secular society is that for the sake of politics and power it destroys a vulnerable young girl's ability to feel her essential value and purpose for our species.

How long will it be until an artwork titled "victory" will sell for millions which depicts a feminist triumphantly holding the body of a dead fetus by its feet above her head?

God you love the sound of your own waffle don't you Nick.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:05 am God you love the sound of your own waffle don't you Nick.

Now you are against art. Where will it end I wonder!

What would your heroine think of you Nick? Not well I suspect.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:43 pm I think you are overestimating both the ability and the desire to discern.

And I suspect you're reckoning as if we had no objective standards or spiritual means to help us discern.

But okay.

Separating the wheat from the tares isn't so easy.

If you read that parable in its context in Scripture, then that particular separation is God's job, not ours. So I think you're looking for another metaphor there.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:13 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:43 pm I think you are overestimating both the ability and the desire to discern.

And I suspect you're reckoning as if we had no objective standards or spiritual means to help us discern.

But okay.

Separating the wheat from the tares isn't so easy.

If you read that parable in its context in Scripture, then that particular separation is God's job, not ours. So I think you're looking for another metaphor there.

1 John

4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Have you thought about what this means and if you are capable of it?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:59 am Have you thought about what this means and if you are capable of it?

Yes, and yes.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:56 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:59 am Have you thought about what this means and if you are capable of it?

Yes, and yes.

Gotta give you credit. You must be virtual elect.

Matthew 24:24

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

People need help and have the need to believe so will swallow anything. But you will remain on the straight and narrow. Remarkable!

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:55 am "... to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

How well do you read?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:21 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:55 am "... to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

How well do you read?

I did use the word virtual. The way you replied showed a surprising lack of humility by insinuating that you would not fall victim to what the overwhelming majority would.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:24 am The way you replied showed a surprising lack of humility by insinuating that you would not fall victim to what the overwhelming majority would.

Sorry...you're not getting it. I can't help that, I guess.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:21 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:55 am "... to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

How well do you read?

"If possible," could be a rare event.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:58 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:21 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:55 am "... to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

How well do you read?

"If possible," could be a rare event.

Good catch, W. Or, more literally, an impossible one.

It's the attempt to deceive that is the subject of that sentence. This passage is in Mark 13, speaks of many false messiahs, of various wars and rumours thereof, and of the end times (v. 19-20). "The elect" is a select group out of the Jewish nation (see v. 2, 9, 14), at the end of times, not people in general, and not now, as Nick thinks. So it does not apply to now, and emphasizes that some people WILL NOT be deceived, because they are "the elect," not that everybody will be.

This is the problem with Gnosticism. It does not read the text, or pay any attention to context. It "mines" the text, isolating particular bits in order to get it to "say" whatever it wants to hear. And when you point this out, the Gnostic says, "Well, I'm doing an esoteric reading, and you're not illuminated, so you don't get it."

Well, one can't say much to that kind of argument, can one?