uwot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:14 pm
My guess is that with respect to his wife, Peter Holmes is not in the vacuum you find yourself in.
Obviously.
With respect to Peter's wife I know Peter is not in a vacuum. Peter knows he's not in a vacuum. I know I am in a vacuum. Peter knows I am in a vacuum.
Given that both of us accept all of the above, I am no closer to understanding why Peter might utter the sentence "I know my wife" to me.
It communicates nothing from Peter to me. I can only assume that his intention is for me to paraphrase his words in my understanding so that the conversation can continue.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:23 pmContext matters.
Yeah, but not that much.
It matters enough.
To put it differently: Intent is necessary, but insufficient for meaningful language, for if the clouds spelled out "I know my wife" it would be meaningless. A statistical anomaly worthy of going viral on YouTube and attaining prime-time press coverage, but I wouldn't go as far as considering it to be a meaningful sentence due to my inability to infer the clouds' intent (plagiarising Stanley Cavell).
uwot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:20 pm
Nor me, but I don't doubt he knows his wife.
And the seemingly-paradoxical version...
I don't doubt what Peter is saying, but I doubt I understanding what he means.
Nay! I am certain I don't understand what Peter means, because if use is meaning, I have no idea how Peter is using the word "know" in the sentence "I know my wife".
This is not "semantic jiggery-pokery". This is me trying to close the semantic gap as best as I know how.
A_Seagull wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:50 am
All that we know of the world is a model of the world. To deny that is IMO to be a non-philosopher.
I know my kitchen, clothes, wife and children, home town, colleagues, guitars, and so on and so on. These are real things that I know. They are not models (descriptions) of the world. They are features of reality that I know, given the way we use the word know. The claim that they are merely models is an absurd affectation.
Yes, and people used to know that the Earth was flat.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:23 pmContext matters.
Yeah, but not that much.
It matters enough.
To put it differently: Intent is necessary, but insufficient for meaningful language, for if the clouds spelled out "I know my wife" it would be meaningless. A statistical anomaly worthy of going viral on YouTube and attaining prime-time press coverage, but I wouldn't go as far as considering it to be a meaningful sentence due to my inability to infer the clouds' intent (plagiarising Stanley Cavell).
I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean unless you explain the context for your words, and your intention, which you cavalierly refuse to do. You may understand them, but I don't. Perhaps we'd better leave it here, with mutual and complete incomprehension.
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:40 am
I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean unless you explain the context for your words, and your intention, which you cavalierly refuse to do. You may understand them, but I don't. Perhaps we'd better leave it here, with mutual and complete incomprehension.
And that's how it devolves into sophistry. My intention is to understand you better by communicating more freely and effectively.
All I am asking you to do is to put the general principle you subscribe to into practice.
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:51 pm
We use the word know and its cognates perfectly clearly in many different contexts, and that if required we can explain what we mean in different ways.
I am asking you to "explain what you mean in different ways". Surely you understand this request? It's formulated in your own language.
I am literally helping you help me understand you by asking for an example of how you might use the sentence "I know my wife" in a conversation.
You seem unwilling to do that. Perhaps because you've been programmed to conduct philosophy as if it were a standoff?
Personally, I think cooperation is better. Godspeed.
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:40 am
I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean unless you explain the context for your words, and your intention, which you cavalierly refuse to do. You may understand them, but I don't. Perhaps we'd better leave it here, with mutual and complete incomprehension.
And that's how it devolves into sophistry. My intention is to understand you better by communicating more freely and effectively.
All I am asking you to do is to put the general principle you subscribe to into practice.
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:51 pm
We use the word know and its cognates perfectly clearly in many different contexts, and that if required we can explain what we mean in different ways.
I am asking you to "explain what you mean in different ways". Surely you understand this request? It's formulated in your own language.
I am literally helping you help me understand you by asking for an example of how you might use the sentence "I know my wife" in a conversation.
You seem unwilling to do that. Perhaps because you've been programmed to conduct philosophy as if it were a standoff?
Personally, I think cooperation is better. Godspeed.
I'm sorry, but unless you explain what you mean when you say you have no idea what I meant when I said 'I know my wife' - that the context in which I said it - to demonstrate examples of how we use the word 'know' - made no sense to you, so that you had no way to understand my intention in that context - then I simply don't understand what your intention is when you ask your question.
We can keep playing this stupid game - you can keep affecting incomprehension of standard English words used in a standard way in a perfectly understandable context. Or, better still, let's not bother. Or, even better, why don't you set out your argument as clearly and concisely as you can in an OP, so that we can all understand and assess it? Never know, it could sort us all out.
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:40 am
I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean unless you explain the context for your words, and your intention, which you cavalierly refuse to do. You may understand them, but I don't. Perhaps we'd better leave it here, with mutual and complete incomprehension.
And that's how it devolves into sophistry. My intention is to understand you better by communicating more freely and effectively.
All I am asking you to do is to put the general principle you subscribe to into practice.
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:51 pm
We use the word know and its cognates perfectly clearly in many different contexts, and that if required we can explain what we mean in different ways.
I am asking you to "explain what you mean in different ways". Surely you understand this request? It's formulated in your own language.
I am literally helping you help me understand you by asking for an example of how you might use the sentence "I know my wife" in a conversation.
You seem unwilling to do that. Perhaps because you've been programmed to conduct philosophy as if it were a standoff?
Personally, I think cooperation is better. Godspeed.
I'm sorry, but unless you explain what you mean when you say you have no idea what I meant when I said 'I know my wife' - that the context in which I said it - to demonstrate examples of how we use the word 'know' - made no sense to you, so that you had no way to understand my intention in that context - then I simply don't understand what your intention is when you ask your question.
We can keep playing this stupid game - you can keep affecting incomprehension of standard English words used in a standard way in a perfectly understandable context. Or, better still, let's not bother. Or, even better, why don't you set out your argument as clearly and concisely as you can in an OP, so that we can all understand and assess it? Never know, it could sort us all out.
Then stop playing the stupid game and answer the question.
How would you use the sentence "I know my wife" in a conversation?
I am telling you that I don't comprehend your meaning, because I actually don't comprehend your meaning. If you don't care to course-correct to my feedback... carry on.
Skepdick wrote:
In a vacuum I have NO idea what Peter is trying to say by I know my wife
But you are not in a vacuum because you have a frame of reference which you can use
As you have a girlfriend and so you know her in the same sense that he knows his wife
