HUMAN PERSONHOOD - THE CASE AGAINST ABORTION

[Veritas Aequitas]

I don't think self-cherishing contribute directly to abortions. It is at most secondary factor and there are many secondary factors.

Do you know why you think what you think?
Aspects of abortion are like branches growing from the root.
The root is self-cherishing.

Problems contribute directly to abortions.

No self-cherishing, no problems.

No problems, no abortion.

Thus, self-cherishing is not only the primary cause of abortion, it is the primary cause of every problem.

*

Cherishing the unborn within oneself, more than oneself, ends the cause of abortion.

In this case you are fire-fighting instead of preventing fires in the first place.

Don't you think it would be more effective to deal with the root cause, i.e. making sure there is no unwanted or unplanned-unborn to be cherished.

In the present circumstances, one should develop one's ability in impulse-controls and don't simply f.ck like wild animals in response to whenever and whatever lusty sexual impulses are triggered. At least both parties [male & female] should ensure they have whatever effective proper contraceptive methods in place before they have sex if there is no planning for a baby.

In terms of sex, the majority of people are behaving like wild animals and they are so ignorant, they take it as something normal. Human beings are evolving with an improving moral faculty and there is a need to expedite this in the majority of humans. Then there will be lesser and lesser number of abortions due to recklessness.

If this preventive method is done, then, there is no unwanted or unplanned-unborn to be cherished.

[Walker]

A wild cheetah mother will hide her kits and then risk her own body, her own being and existence, as a decoy target to capture the attention of predators and lure them away from the youngins.

This biological imperative perpetuates the species.

Humans are the same, but in humans the biological overriding of self-cherishing must be powerful enough to silence the secondary problems that support a decision to abort, and because conceptual delusion has become so habitual the biological imperative gets diluted.

[Dachshund]

I don't think self-cherishing contribute directly to abortions. It is at most secondary factor and there are many secondary factors.

Do you know why you think what you think?
Aspects of abortion are like branches growing from the root.
The root is self-cherishing.

I take your point about "self-cherishing", Walker, by which I think you mean being in possession of an egocentric, narcissistic perspective (?)

You claim this is THE root source of abortion, though I would say it is one PART of what causes abortion. What truly alarms me, is the sheer enormity of the legal, for-profit, abortion industry in the United States. Did you know that 50 MILLION abortions have been performed in America since 1973, following the US Supreme Court decision in the case of "Roe V Wade" to make abortion (effectively "on demand") legal ? 50 MILLION ! This, and the attempt in some states by lawyers and politicians to make abortion DURING the actual process of birth - and even shortly AFTER birth (the later being nothing less than infanticide) legal I find is completely "beyond the pale", it is pure madness.

I have my own theories about what the primary cause of these horrors is and I will set them down in a post on this thread tomorrow. I believe my argument is sound and I will "double dog dare you" to deny it if you get a chance to read what I will say.

Regards


Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)

[Sculptor]

Fundamentally, abortion is immoral.
In theory if abortion is made universal, the human species would be threatened.

If abortion, being universal, would be common enough as to threaten humanity, then this would represent a serious claim that all antiabortion was totally unethical since it would be setting up such proscription against human activity as to prevent millions of women from making a free choice.
The fact is that the only time where abortion were to be so common as to threaten the existence of the human species would be where women were raped into pregnancy rather than becoming pregnant through choice.
The claim you make is the height of hyperbolic absurdity.

In reality universal abortion rights have always led to good things. Abortion has many advantages.
Birth control makes great sense in a time of dwindling resources.
Abortion in particular ensures that raped women are not doubly punished by having to carry the spawn of their attacker.
Abortion is also beneficial to allow women to avoid bringing children with serious birth defects into the world.

There is no reasonable grounds for making timely abortion illegal, none. And no man is even qualified to suggest that.

You have missed many of my points above.

I did not say, abortion should be made illegal.
I stated the ZERO Abortion moral rule should not be enforced, i.e. legally.

• Thus the absolute moral rule is 'No Abortion is permitted', ZERO Abortion.
  But this is merely a guide for improvement, it should not be enforced.

I was responding to what you actually said.

The point here is we do not mix morality & ethics with jurisprudence [politics].

Abortion is and always has been perfectly moral.

Morality and Ethics are personal affairs like making personal resolutions to improve oneself, in this case by adopting absolute moral rules as a GUIDE only.
If one breaks one's own rules out of critical necessity [e.g. rape, etc.], there is no punishment, but the standard set should spur one/others to avoid and improve later.
How to get every individual to do the above is the question for another topic on morality and ethics.

To make abortion a right or legal to resolve something like overpopulation and the likes is very immoral and inefficient.

I never claimed that. You just made the idiotic remark that universally available abortion would be a threat to the human species, which is idiotic

As I had stated the 'ZERO Abortion' target is merely a guide and not a legal enforcement.
Therefore if anyone want or it is necessary to break one's own rule, then one can do the abortion [this time only] against the overriding rule of No Abortion which will prevail in the future.

Telling a woman she is wrong to have an abortion under any circumstance is immoral

What is critical for humanity is to understand what are the root causes of abortion. The abortion equation is;

• Humans + sex instinct + lust + no planning + no contraceptive methods + bad impulse controls + no holistic outlook + [?others] = unwanted conception or babies.

You forgot to include rape and moments of wonderful unbridled passion.

Maybe you should take you half baked ideas to the church, because they are the ones banning other forms of birth control.

Thus the critical approach is to tackle the critical root causes effectively on a progressive basis and the number of abortions will be reduced gradually.
Within the 'no holistic outlook' we will look at the theistic factor where God do not permit abortion.

God aborts more foetuses than humans. Think about it!
God is not anti-abortion - he does it all the time

With the proof 'God is an impossibility to exists as real' that will cut off the ground for any real God to command abortion as a sin.

verbal diarrhoea.

All the root causes will be dealt with to resolve the issue of abortion.

The problem is you

Because of Human beings being human, it is not likely abortion will be ZERO, but the ideal target is a standard that drives improvement toward the ideal.

Tell that to god, whose "natural" abortion rate is between 10-20% of all human pregnancies.
One study in Denmark, which included 1,221,546 pregnancies between 1978 and 1992, found the overall miscarriage rate was 13.5 percent.

[Veritas Aequitas]

A wild cheetah mother will hide her kits and then risk her own body, her own being and existence, as a decoy target to capture the attention of predators and lure them away from the youngins.

This biological imperative perpetuates the species.

Humans are the same, but in humans the biological overriding of self-cherishing must be powerful enough to silence the secondary problems that support a decision to abort, and because conceptual delusion has become so habitual the biological imperative gets diluted.

You still don't get it.

Why don't you reframe the point it would be more efficient that there should no thing [fetus] to abort than to be in a position of deciding to abort or not.

[Veritas Aequitas]

If abortion, being universal, would be common enough as to threaten humanity, then this would represent a serious claim that all antiabortion was totally unethical since it would be setting up such proscription against human activity as to prevent millions of women from making a free choice.
The fact is that the only time where abortion were to be so common as to threaten the existence of the human species would be where women were raped into pregnancy rather than becoming pregnant through choice.
The claim you make is the height of hyperbolic absurdity.

In reality universal abortion rights have always led to good things. Abortion has many advantages.
Birth control makes great sense in a time of dwindling resources.
Abortion in particular ensures that raped women are not doubly punished by having to carry the spawn of their attacker.
Abortion is also beneficial to allow women to avoid bringing children with serious birth defects into the world.

There is no reasonable grounds for making timely abortion illegal, none. And no man is even qualified to suggest that.

You have missed many of my points above.

I did not say, abortion should be made illegal.
I stated the ZERO Abortion moral rule should not be enforced, i.e. legally.

• Thus the absolute moral rule is 'No Abortion is permitted', ZERO Abortion.
  But this is merely a guide for improvement, it should not be enforced.

I was responding to what you actually said.

Where?
I stated above, right in front of you, the rule on Zero Abortion should not be enforced, i.e. within jurisprudence.

The point here is we do not mix morality & ethics with jurisprudence [politics].

Abortion is and always has been perfectly moral.

I define morality is the establishment of secular moral rules as Guides.
In this sense, ZERO Abortion is morally right.
To permit any abortion is immoral.

Morality and Ethics are personal affairs like making personal resolutions to improve oneself, in this case by adopting absolute moral rules as a GUIDE only.
If one breaks one's own rules out of critical necessity [e.g. rape, etc.], there is no punishment, but the standard set should spur one/others to avoid and improve later.
How to get every individual to do the above is the question for another topic on morality and ethics.

To make abortion a right or legal to resolve something like overpopulation and the likes is very immoral and inefficient.

I never claimed that. You just made the idiotic remark that universally available abortion would be a threat to the human species, which is idiotic.

You are the idiot one who is not using your reasoning power.

In practice, it may not seem to be the case, the human species will be threatened.
What I reasoned 'if abortion is permitted as a universal right' then THEORETICALLY it could be a threat to the human species. You deny this theoretical possibility?
The fact is there is already a trend of the modern couples not wanting to have and take care of babies for a range of reasons, e.g. more freedom, financial constraints, etc. thus their options to abort for any unplanned pregnancy.
There is a possibility the maternal and paternal instincts of humans could be eroded by various reasons.

Thus to ensure this THEORETICAL possibility do not materialize, it would be safer to adopt the secular moral rule of 'ZERO Abortion' as an overriding GUIDE which is not legally enforceable.

Moments of passion??
That is my point, as human beings we should not be like wild animals which are driven by their moments of passion and will even kill to ensure the consummation of that passion.
When we contrast the ZERO Abortion standard against moments of passion, humanity will find ways to deal with those 'moments of passion' to a minimum to avoid any potential for abortion.

Note I suggested we deal with the root causes to prevent people from landing humans into a decision of whether to abort or not.

As I had stated the 'ZERO Abortion' target is merely a guide and not a legal enforcement.
Therefore if anyone want or it is necessary to break one's own rule, then one can do the abortion [this time only] against the overriding rule of No Abortion which will prevail in the future.

Telling a woman she is wrong to have an abortion under any circumstance is immoral.

You missed my point.
In Morality and Ethics, there is no one telling a woman she is wrong to have an abortion.

The effective approach is for each women and man to develop a self-program in voluntarily accepting with understand and realization, the standard of ZERO abortion is a win-win for all. However this is only a guiding standard and thus critical exceptions are acceptable. If one made a mistake, the guiding standard will guide one to improve to avoid one own standard.

What is critical for humanity is to understand what are the root causes of abortion. The abortion equation is;

• Humans + sex instinct + lust + no planning + no contraceptive methods + bad impulse controls + no holistic outlook + [?others] = unwanted conception or babies.

You forgot to include rape and moments of wonderful unbridled passion.

Note the variable 'lust' where one will improve to restraining one's unbridled passion.
It is immature to think unbrigled wild passion is wonderful. Note deliberately planned sex sessions will give greater sense of passion than wild ones, e.g. tantra, 24 hours lasting orgasms, etc.

Maybe you should take you half baked ideas to the church, because they are the ones banning other forms of birth control.

Yes, note I mentioned the theistic element and my quest to prove 'God is impossible to be real', thus cutting off the grounds for theists in banning birth control and advocating no abortion in practice.

Thus the critical approach is to tackle the critical root causes effectively on a progressive basis and the number of abortions will be reduced gradually.
Within the 'no holistic outlook' we will look at the theistic factor where God do not permit abortion.

God aborts more foetuses than humans. Think about it!
God is not anti-abortion - he does it all the time

As mentioned above my proof 'God is an impossibility' is to counter this.

With the proof 'God is an impossibility to exists as real' that will cut off the ground for any real God to command abortion as a sin.

verbal diarrhoea.

All the root causes will be dealt with to resolve the issue of abortion.

The problem is you

Can't you see the logic?
Can you counter my point;
With the proof 'God is an impossibility to exists as real' that will cut off the ground for any real God to command abortion as a sin.

Because of Human beings being human, it is not likely abortion will be ZERO, but the ideal target is a standard that drives improvement toward the ideal.

Tell that to god, whose "natural" abortion rate is between 10-20% of all human pregnancies.
One study in Denmark, which included 1,221,546 pregnancies between 1978 and 1992, found the overall miscarriage rate was 13.5 percent.

When we can convinced theists 'God is an impossibility to exists as real' in the future, the above issues will be resolved.

[Sculptor]

You have missed many of my points above.

They are all rubbish.


I was responding to what you actually said.[/quote]
Where?
I stated above, right in front of you, the rule on Zero Abortion should not be enforced, i.e. within jurisprudence.

[/quote] Where you said abortion was a threat to the human species.


Abortion is and always has been perfectly moral.

I define morality is the establishment of secular moral rules as Guides.
In this sense, ZERO Abortion is morally right.
To permit any abortion is immoral.

Horseshit.
Pressuring a woman to carry a child she is unwilling or unable to carry is immoral. Pressuring a woman to carry the bastard of her rape is thoroughly immoral

Morality and Ethics are personal affairs like making personal resolutions to improve oneself, in this case by adopting absolute moral rules as a GUIDE only.

Since when were you ever in danger of getting pregnant?
NEVER!
Make your own bloody rules and stop trying to impose your will on others.

If one breaks one's own rules out of critical necessity [e.g. rape, etc.], there is no punishment, but the standard set should spur one/others to avoid and improve later.

What arrogance. Trying to impose your rules on others in matters you will never has to face personally.

In practice, it may not seem to be the case, the human species will be threatened.

More horse sh1t. There are plenty of babies born already. Giving women power over their own bodies has slowed down the massive population increase worldwide.
...
Telling a woman she is wrong to have an abortion under any circumstance is immoral.

You missed my point.
In Morality and Ethics, there is no one telling a woman she is wrong to have an abortion.

It is what you have said. You can't hide behind your moral facade. You are only kidding yourself.

...
Maybe you should take you half baked ideas to the church, because they are the ones banning other forms of birth control.

Can't you see the logic?

Yes the logic of a moral bigot dispensing rules they shall never have to uphold.

[mickthinks]

I'm going to recycle a post I made back in September

I'm going to recycle a post I made back in June

I'm going to recycle a post I made back in '15

WHY DO YOU SHOUT YOUR SUBJECT HEADING AT US IN UPPERCASE? IS IT BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR TOPICS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OTHER PEOPLE'S AND NEED MORE ATTENTION?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Fundamentally, abortion is immoral.
In theory if abortion is made universal, the human species would be threatened.

If abortion, being universal, would be common enough as to threaten humanity, then this would represent a serious claim that all antiabortion was totally unethical since it would be setting up such proscription against human activity as to prevent millions of women from making a free choice.
The fact is that the only time where abortion were to be so common as to threaten the existence of the human species would be where women were raped into pregnancy rather than becoming pregnant through choice.
The claim you make is the height of hyperbolic absurdity.

In reality universal abortion rights have always led to good things. Abortion has many advantages.
Birth control makes great sense in a time of dwindling resources.
Abortion in particular ensures that raped women are not doubly punished by having to carry the spawn of their attacker.
Abortion is also beneficial to allow women to avoid bringing children with serious birth defects into the world.

There is no reasonable grounds for making timely abortion illegal, none. And no man is even qualified to suggest that.

You have missed many of my points above.

I did not say, abortion should be made illegal.
I stated the ZERO Abortion moral rule should not be enforced, i.e. legally.

• Thus the absolute moral rule is 'No Abortion is permitted', ZERO Abortion.
  But this is merely a guide for improvement, it should not be enforced.

The point here is we do not mix morality & ethics with jurisprudence [politics].
Morality and Ethics are personal affairs like making personal resolutions to improve oneself, in this case by adopting absolute moral rules as a GUIDE only.
If one breaks one's own rules out of critical necessity [e.g. rape, etc.], there is no punishment, but the standard set should spur one/others to avoid and improve later.
How to get every individual to do the above is the question for another topic on morality and ethics.

To make abortion a right or legal to resolve something like overpopulation and the likes is very immoral and inefficient.

As I had stated the 'ZERO Abortion' target is merely a guide and not a legal enforcement.
Therefore if anyone want or it is necessary to break one's own rule, then one can do the abortion [this time only] against the overriding rule of No Abortion which will prevail in the future.

What is critical for humanity is to understand what are the root causes of abortion. The abortion equation is;

• Humans + sex instinct + lust + no planning + no contraceptive methods + bad impulse controls + no holistic outlook + [?others] = unwanted conception or babies.

Thus the critical approach is to tackle the critical root causes effectively on a progressive basis and the number of abortions will be reduced gradually.
Within the 'no holistic outlook' we will look at the theistic factor where God do not permit abortion. With the proof 'God is an impossibility to exists as real' that will cut off the ground for any real God to command abortion as a sin.
All the root causes will be dealt with to resolve the issue of abortion.

Because of Human beings being human, it is not likely abortion will be ZERO, but the ideal target is a standard that drives improvement toward the ideal.

And why don't you fuck off back to whatever rat hole you left to parasitically insert yourself into somewhere else.
Why are you talking about 'God' with regard to abortion? Your 'God' is the most prolific abortionist hands down.
And yes, humans have a 'sex instinct', humans get raped, humans lie, humans cheat, humans break up, humans leave each other in the lurch, humans make bad decisions, humans forget things, humans are humans...And you do realise it takes both sexes to make a pregnancy don't you? While it's women who have to deal with ALL of the fallout, in the most basic and fundamental way.
So take your hypocritical misogynistic religiofuck judgementalism and shove it up your arse (along with all your racist threads).

[-1-]

And you do realise it takes both sexes to make a pregnancy don't you? While it's women who have to deal with ALL of the fallout,

Holy McKarel. I should have hoped the abortion clinics should have had their own cleaning staff.

[Dachshund]

And why don't you fuck off back to whatever rat hole you left to parasitically insert yourself into somewhere else.
Why are you talking about 'God' with regard to abortion? Your 'God' is the most prolific abortionist hands down.
And yes, humans have a 'sex instinct', humans get raped, humans lie, humans cheat, humans break up, humans leave each other in the lurch, humans make bad decisions, humans forget things, humans are humans...And you do realise it takes both sexes to make a pregnancy don't you? While it's women who have to deal with ALL of the fallout, in the most basic and fundamental way.
So take your hypocritical misogynistic religiofuck judgementalism and shove it up your arse (along with all your racist threads).

Looks like Veggie is having (yet another) "bad hair day" folks, either that, or it's "time of the month" again !


Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)

[vegetariantaxidermy]

And why don't you fuck off back to whatever rat hole you left to parasitically insert yourself into somewhere else.
Why are you talking about 'God' with regard to abortion? Your 'God' is the most prolific abortionist hands down.
And yes, humans have a 'sex instinct', humans get raped, humans lie, humans cheat, humans break up, humans leave each other in the lurch, humans make bad decisions, humans forget things, humans are humans...And you do realise it takes both sexes to make a pregnancy don't you? While it's women who have to deal with ALL of the fallout, in the most basic and fundamental way.
So take your hypocritical misogynistic religiofuck judgementalism and shove it up your arse (along with all your racist threads).

Looks like Veggie is having (yet another) "bad hair day" folks, either that, or it's "time of the month" again !


Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)

Neither actually. I meant every word, and it's all true.

[Dachshund]

Neither actually. I meant every word, and it's all true.

Hey Veggie,


I found something on you tube that reminds me of you...


Type : "potty mouthed kids video compilation" into your google search engine and play the second video from the top.


Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Neither actually. I meant every word, and it's all true.

Hey Veggie,


I found something on you tube that reminds me of you...


Type : "potty mouthed kids video compilation" into your google search engine and play the second video from the top.


Dachshund (Der Uberweiner)

Oh, and the post applied equally to you.

[Veritas Aequitas]

And why don't you fuck off back to whatever rat hole you left to parasitically insert yourself into somewhere else.
Why are you talking about 'God' with regard to abortion? Your 'God' is the most prolific abortionist hands down.
And yes, humans have a 'sex instinct', humans get raped, humans lie, humans cheat, humans break up, humans leave each other in the lurch, humans make bad decisions, humans forget things, humans are humans...And you do realise it takes both sexes to make a pregnancy don't you? While it's women who have to deal with ALL of the fallout, in the most basic and fundamental way.
So take your hypocritical misogynistic religiofuck judgementalism and shove it up your arse (along with all your racist threads).

What 'Your God'?
I am [a]theist and I don't believe in any God.

Since you are using veggies, you don't have to worry about abortion.