Page 2 of 8
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:47 pm
by Age
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:37 pm
Age wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:14 am
philosopher wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:33 pm
Nazism is nazism. They still believe in the same wrong stuff their predecessors believed in. Therefore, to prevent them from regaining power and to even have a say in society, we need to exterminate the nazis.
How would you like to exterminate these human beings, who seemingly just have different views than you have? Maybe build gas chambers for them, and gas them to death? After all a class or group of human beings with different views deserve to be exterminated, right?
Even if there is 6 million of them there needs to be another holocaust to wipe out those who view and seeing things differently then you do, correct?
Is this just history repeating itself?
The absolute absurdity of wanting to wipe out another group of human beings, for just having, incidentally, the EXACT SAME views you have, speaks for itself.
Your view is you want to exterminate a group of people for having the view of wanting to exterminate a group of people. Could this get any more stupid?
You even said:
"They" still believe in the same wrong stuff their predecessors believed in. Are you at all aware that the same stuff "they" BELIEVE IN IS the exact same stuff "you" BELIEVE IN? Which is to exterminate a class/group/race of human beings who just have and hold different views than "you" or "they".
This is absurdity and stupidity at its finest.
The means to achieve the end is not the issue. The end/result is.
What 'end' are you talking about here?
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:49 pm
by philosopher
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:08 pm
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:56 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:45 am
Murdering people for committing thought crimes is the behaviour of nazis.
Thought crimes can be punished in many societies, that doesn't make them nazis.
I'm sorry, in which of those 'morally superior' western countries with their freedom of expression, are thought crimes punishable?
Though not punishable by death, thought crimes are punishable by long time jailing in France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway.
These thought crimes include:
Nazi-sympathies (punishable in France and Germany)
Terrorist-sympathies (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway)
Racist hate-speeches (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway).
The laws are already in place. All I want is to impose tougher penalties for violating the thought crime laws.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:54 pm
by FlashDangerpants
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:49 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:08 pm
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:56 am
Thought crimes can be punished in many societies, that doesn't make them nazis.
I'm sorry, in which of those 'morally superior' western countries with their freedom of expression, are thought crimes punishable?
Though not punishable by death, thought crimes are punishable by long time jailing in France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway.
These thought crimes include:
Nazi-sympathies (punishable in France and Germany)
Terrorist-sympathies (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway)
Racist hate-speeches (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway).
The laws are already in place. All I want is to impose tougher penalties for violating the thought crime laws.
None of that is true. Holding nazi sympathies is not a crime anywhere, nor is holding terrorist sympathies. You have to do something, not think something, to get into trouble. Only you want murder people for simply holding an opinion.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:57 pm
by philosopher
Age wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:47 pm
What 'end' are you talking about here?
Nazi ends is a society with everyone conforming to the idea of strong men and women can work, compete and provide military troops.
A society where everyone who has a weakness is being euthanized.
My ends is a society with everyone conforming to the idea of choosing to work if they want and get rewards, or optionally choose to not work and live a life in a way they so choose (as long as they do not oppose the government) and weak people are being treated decently and no citizen is forced into military or labor duty.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:59 pm
by philosopher
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:54 pm
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:49 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:08 pm
I'm sorry, in which of those 'morally superior' western countries with their freedom of expression, are thought crimes punishable?
Though not punishable by death, thought crimes are punishable by long time jailing in France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway.
These thought crimes include:
Nazi-sympathies (punishable in France and Germany)
Terrorist-sympathies (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway)
Racist hate-speeches (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway).
The laws are already in place. All I want is to impose tougher penalties for violating the thought crime laws.
None of that is true. Holding nazi sympathies is not a crime anywhere, nor is holding terrorist sympathies. You have to do something, not think something, to get into trouble. Only you want murder people for simply holding an opinion.
It is true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgese ... ection_86a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... ust_denial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... _to_hatred
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:03 pm
by FlashDangerpants
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:59 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:54 pm
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:49 pm
Though not punishable by death, thought crimes are punishable by long time jailing in France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway.
These thought crimes include:
Nazi-sympathies (punishable in France and Germany)
Terrorist-sympathies (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway)
Racist hate-speeches (France, Germany, Italy, UK, Denmark and Norway).
The laws are already in place. All I want is to impose tougher penalties for violating the thought crime laws.
None of that is true. Holding nazi sympathies is not a crime anywhere, nor is holding terrorist sympathies. You have to do something, not think something, to get into trouble. Only you want murder people for simply holding an opinion.
It is true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgese ... ection_86a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... ust_denial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... _to_hatred
That's two laws forbidding specific actions. Neither of which legislates for the content of anybody's opinions.
What are you trying to do here? This is just stupid. You are not talented enough for any of the things you are trying to acheive.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:05 pm
by philosopher
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:03 pm
That's two laws forbidding specific actions. Neither of which legislates for the content of anybody's opinions.
What are you trying to do here? This is just stupid. You are not talented enough for any of the things you are trying to acheive.
Their actions are publications of their thoughts. Such actions are punishable.
In Belgium, Holocaust denial was made illegal in 1995.
Negationism Law (1995, amendments of 1999)
Article 1 Whoever, in the circumstances given in article 444 of the Penal Code denies, grossly minimises, attempts to justify, or approves the genocide committed by the German National Socialist Regime during the Second World War shall be punished by a prison sentence of eight days to one year, and by a fine of twenty six francs to five thousand francs. For the application of the previous paragraph, the term genocide is meant in the sense of article 2 of the International Treaty of 9 December 1948 on preventing and combating genocide. In the event of repetitions, the guilty party may in addition have his civic rights suspended in accordance with article 33 of the Penal Code.
Art.2 In the event of a conviction on account of a violation under this Act, it may be ordered that the judgement, in its entity or an excerpt of it, is published in one of more newspapers, and is displayed, to the charge of the guilty party.
Art.3. Chapter VII of the First Book of the Penal Code and Article 85 of the same Code are also applicable to this Act.
Art. 4. The Centre for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism, as well as any association that at the time of the facts had a legal personality for at least five years, and which, on the grounds of its statutes, has the objective of defending moral interests and the honour of the resistance or the deported, may act in law in all legal disputes arising from the application of this Act.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:35 pm
by FlashDangerpants
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:05 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:03 pm
That's two laws forbidding specific actions. Neither of which legislates for the content of anybody's opinions.
What are you trying to do here? This is just stupid. You are not talented enough for any of the things you are trying to acheive.
Their actions are publications of their thoughts. Such actions are punishable.
In Belgium, Holocaust denial was made illegal in 1995.
Negationism Law (1995, amendments of 1999)
Article 1 Whoever, in the circumstances given in article 444 of the Penal Code denies, grossly minimises, attempts to justify, or approves the genocide committed by the German National Socialist Regime during the Second World War shall be punished by a prison sentence of eight days to one year, and by a fine of twenty six francs to five thousand francs. For the application of the previous paragraph, the term genocide is meant in the sense of article 2 of the International Treaty of 9 December 1948 on preventing and combating genocide. In the event of repetitions, the guilty party may in addition have his civic rights suspended in accordance with article 33 of the Penal Code.
Art.2 In the event of a conviction on account of a violation under this Act, it may be ordered that the judgement, in its entity or an excerpt of it, is published in one of more newspapers, and is displayed, to the charge of the guilty party.
Art.3. Chapter VII of the First Book of the Penal Code and Article 85 of the same Code are also applicable to this Act.
Art. 4. The Centre for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism, as well as any association that at the time of the facts had a legal personality for at least five years, and which, on the grounds of its statutes, has the objective of defending moral interests and the honour of the resistance or the deported, may act in law in all legal disputes arising from the application of this Act.
Can you tell the difference between having a "harmful wrong opinion" and publishing one? Which do you propose to kill people for?
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:40 pm
by Age
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:57 pm
Age wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:47 pm
What 'end' are you talking about here?
Nazi ends is a society with everyone conforming to the idea of strong men and women can work, compete and provide military troops.
A society where everyone who has a weakness is being euthanized.
My ends is a society with everyone conforming to the idea of choosing to work if they want and get rewards, or optionally choose to not work and live a life in a way they so choose (as long as they do not oppose the government) and weak people are being treated decently and no citizen is forced into military or labor duty.
Okay.
So one end euthanizes some people and the other end euthanizes some people. So, what is the actual difference?
Ah I see it now. One end society peoples want to euthanize people with the other 'end' view point and the other end societies peoples want to euthanize people with the other 'end' view point.
By the way WHY in your ends are people NOT allowed to oppose the government?
Could this have some thing to do with the fact that if your ends were met, then the government of that 'end met society' would be the EXACT one that you WANT, and therefore you do NOT want any one to oppose that government/society which you WANT, in the 'end'? And, if any one opposed your end society or if they thought and had views that you do NOT like, then those ones should be euthanized, or as you say "we need to exterminate them in as horrible death as others have caused", correct?
Do you really BELIEVE that human beings with different views, which you do NOT like, NEED to be exterminated and REALLY wish them a horrible death?
If no, then okay.
If yes, then you sound just like the leader of a nazi party.
You do, after all, have expressed the EXACT SAME views and wishes of those that FORMED the nazi party. And, now you are WANTING to FORM your own party/society.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 pm
by philosopher
Age wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:40 pm
if any one opposed your end society or if they thought and had views that you do NOT like, then those ones should be euthanized, or as you say "we need to exterminate them in as horrible death as others have caused", correct?
Do you really BELIEVE that human beings with different views, which you do NOT like, NEED to be exterminated and REALLY wish them a horrible death?
People may disagree to a certain point. Wanting to exterminate the weak/disabled/ill should be punishable by death.
Just disagreeing should be legal.
It is perfectly fine with me to say "we want to protect the nazis as they are humans too, even though we disagree with them".
That's ok with me. I do find such people terribly naive, but I won't punish them for it. Naive people are often good people, sometimes they are the best people because they believe in the goodness of all humans. They are wrong, but that's not something to be punished, not by death not even by fines.
In-fact I believe we should protect such naive goodness-believing people, because they are an endangered specie.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:55 pm
by Age
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 pm
Age wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:40 pm
if any one opposed your end society or if they thought and had views that you do NOT like, then those ones should be euthanized, or as you say "we need to exterminate them in as horrible death as others have caused", correct?
Do you really BELIEVE that human beings with different views, which you do NOT like, NEED to be exterminated and REALLY wish them a horrible death?
People may disagree to a certain point. Wanting to exterminate the weak/disabled/ill should be punishable by death.
So people who want to exterminate other people should be punished by people who want to exterminate other people.
Can you SEE the dilemma here?
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 pmJust disagreeing should be legal.
What is the difference be 'just disagreeing' and 'just opposing'?
It is perfectly fine with me to say "we want to protect the nazis as they are humans too, even though we disagree with them".
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 pmThat's ok with me.
As long as it okay with YOU, then every thing should be fine, correct?
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 pm I do find such people terribly naive, but I won't punish them for it.
You speak as if you really BELIEVE that you have some sort of right over who you choose to punish or not.
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 pmNaive people are often good people, sometimes they are the best people because they believe in the goodness of all humans. They are wrong, but that's not something to be punished, not by death not even by fines.
What do you propose to do with people who are naive AND a nazi?
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:36 pmIn-fact I believe we should protect such naive goodness-believing people, because they are an endangered specie.
So, the 'naive goodness-believing people' should find themselves lucky right? Because the one called "philosopher" is NOT going to kill them, nor give them fines also.
However you make up your decision i hope you choose me as being a 'naive goodness-believing person' over being a 'nazi', that way you will let me live, instead of wanting to exterminate me and wishing i die a horrible death.
By the way what actual formula are you going to use when deciding who lives and dies in your 'end society'?
Your end society is sounding more and more like an actual nazi end society the further we LOOK INTO this. That is; one person deciding on who lives and dies, based solely how and what they think.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:24 pm
by philosopher
Age wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:55 pm
So people who want to exterminate other people should be punished by people who want to exterminate other people.
Can you SEE the dilemma here?
So what exactly do you suggest we do with the nazis?
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:37 pm
by Immanuel Can
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:24 pm
So what exactly do you suggest we do with the nazis?
Maybe you should say exactly who these people are whom you think are "Nazis".
As near as I can see, there don't seem to be any
real ones around: just various kinds of people others want to label that way, so they can abuse them without having to engage their objections, and so that they can avoid being bothered by their own consciences. In other words, much of the "Nazi" talk, at least in North America, is no more than a case of the Left misbehaving badly and needing a bogeyman to hate.
But hey, I'm open to being proved wrong about that if you can locate these "Nazis" for me specifically. I suspect it shouldn't be hard to find lots of specific examples, if they represent any real presence today. And if we find them, sure, I'll fight them. Let's go.
But if you can't find them, then what I said above is more probably the truth.
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:39 pm
by philosopher
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:37 pm
philosopher wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:24 pm
So what exactly do you suggest we do with the nazis?
Maybe you should say exactly who these people are whom you think are "Nazis".
As near as I can see, there don't seem to be any
real ones around: just various kinds of people others want to label that way, so they can abuse them without having to engage their objections, and so that they can avoid being bothered by their own consciences. In other words, much of the "Nazi" talk, at least in North America, is no more than a case of the Left misbehaving badly and needing a bogeyman to hate.
But hey, I'm open to being proved wrong about that if you can locate these "Nazis" for me specifically. I suspect it shouldn't be hard to find lots of specific examples, if they represent any real presence today. And if we find them, sure, I'll fight them. Let's go.
But if you can't find them, then what I said above is more probably the truth.
By nazi I mean everyone member of a National Socialist Party or movement.
Maybe there's none in your country, lucky for you. But in Denmark, there is a growing number of nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... of_Denmark
Re: Cultural Relativism is wrong
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:59 pm
by Gary Childress
I don't know much about Nazis but are people who belong to the Nazi parties these days actively calling for the extermination of anyone? The big thing these days seems to be closing borders and deporting people, not killing them. And I think that is something I've heard of Nazis proposing. Are you suggesting that people who more specifically want to close borders and deport people should be exterminated too?