Philosophy Now Forum

Logik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:19 am A quote by Will Durant:

A nation is born stoic, and dies epicurean. At its cradle (to repeat a thoughtful adage) religion stands, and philosophy accompanies it to the grave.

The simple failure of Philosophy is the absence of negative or positive feedback loops. It is the absence of skin in the game.

There's no mechanism to signal errors. No mechanism to filter out the fit from the unfit ideas.

And if you can't define "error" and "not-error" - well, anything goes really. Free-for-all. This is why Philosophers are trapped in the eternal game of re-describing and re-interpreting the same phenomenologies hoping that one interpretation is better than the next.

Philosophy feeds your dopamine addiction without ever having to achieve anything in practice.
It's exactly the same as Facebook, but Philosophy has a proven track record of failure.

Logik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:22 pm

Greta wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:54 am I like this, although I think you give up on philosophy too quickly.

I work in an environment of builders/inventors/problem-solvers. People who approach things from first principles all the time.

The problem-solving process has a semblance of structure, repetition and iteration to it. There is method to the madness that I can't quite put into words.

In the organized chaos that is the creative/problem-solving process philosophy plays part. It's probably the first step in drawing out concepts, helping brainstorming, getting all the perspectives on the table, looking at the problem from different perspectives, play devil's advocate and make sure that no important detail is ignored before running the Gedankenexperiment on possible approaches to move forward. Ultimately though consensus ensues, something testable or falsifiable emerges and philosophy has served its purpose and we focus on implementation detail.

Philosophy is a tool like any other. You put on the hat when you need it. You take it off when it has served its purpose.

Philosophers forget to take the hat off. Worse yet - philosophers forget to produce anything testable/falsifiable at the end of the heated conversation.

I don't "give up" on it. I recognise when it has run its course.

Logik wrote: ↑Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:05 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:48 am Philosophy’s shortcomings have been well described in the previous posts. However, I’m wondering what could make philosophy dangerous.

It breeds passivity and inaction.

Actually is just center's both. Action for actions sake does not solve any real problems, it even creates them...hence your premise is faulty.

As to passivity, it has its time and place. If a man is at rest, content with what he is presented with...what harm is there in that considering the continual acquisition of resources in itself is about achieving this same goal?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:48 am Is there harm in examining a question that cannot be answered with finality? Does it cause distress to adopt a particular point of view from which to argue? Are its fallacies what make philosophy hazardous?

To be sure, the posts before this one are spot on and well said. But how can one surmise which is more dangerous, Facebook or philosophy? I wonder.

My argument for it is thus:
1. Philosophy asks questions that can't be answered.
Pragmaticism uses the word "use" is a manner which cannot be answered either. Math also, in its increasing expansion, provides little answers as well.


2. Science (under the guidance of decision theory) knows how to determine which questions can and can't be answered so science is quick to discard questions which are obvious dead-ends.


Actually it cannot answer its own foundations at all. It is founded upon hypothesis where each framework/test is subject to infinite hypothesis. As such, it does not provide any real answers.



And so the harm of philosophy (and facebook) can be measured in time wasted. Philosophy has a multi-millennial head start on Facebook.


Then why are you here? Your presense alone gives ample evidence that the method of life you are pursuing "is a waste of time" if you are here. Your presence alone, and the continual argumentation you provide, observes what you push does not work.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Second problem-solving, through the act of reasoning, is an inherent philosophical activity universal within the human condition. People practice philosophy (the love of knowledge) regardless of whether they intend it or not.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Third, most of the problems you address (such as building a tall skyscraper) are not really problems at all, but projections of individual personal desires. And form of reason may show we only need skyscrapers within a given framework, but if that framework is faulty, so is building the skyscraper.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Most of the "problems" you claim are "problems" are questions of not just finding meaning (balance and focus on where one is at) but also trying to acquire more material pleasure.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm Actually is just center's both. Action for actions sake does not solve any real problems it even creates them...hence your premise is faulty.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm As to passivity, it has its time and place. If a man is at rest, content with what he is presented with...what harm is there in that considering the continual acquisition of resources in itself is about achieving this same goal?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm Pragmaticism uses the word "use" is a manner which cannot be answered either.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm Then why are you here? Your presense alone gives ample evidence that the method of life you are pursuing "is a waste of time" if you are here. Your presence alone, and the continual argumentation you provide, observes what you push does not work.

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:19 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Second problem-solving, through the act of reasoning, is an inherent philosophical activity universal within the human condition. People practice philosophy (the love of knowledge) regardless of whether they intend it or not.

Competence without comprehension.

A 5 year old washes their hands. They don't have to know WHY they are doing it to reap the rewards.

When you understand the WHY behind any particular behavior you can choose whether to do it or not.


Actually they are replicating what they see. The "why" is the child existing as an extension of his environment because he knows he will feels separated if he does not follow this mirroring process.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Third, most of the problems you address (such as building a tall skyscraper) are not really problems at all, but projections of individual personal desires. And form of reason may show we only need skyscrapers within a given framework, but if that framework is faulty, so is building the skyscraper.

This is where your analogy fails you. If all the sky scrapers kept falling over despite the strength of the foundation then at some point I would give up on high-rise buildings...

Entropy, either through nature or the human condition. It is a house of cards, but the metal guarantees a longer time line...but a timeline none the less.

Second, high rise building are strictly for the rich...they are not needed. They are just exhibitions of power replicating a universal phallic symbolism. It is just a dick measuring contest amidst companies.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Most of the "problems" you claim are "problems" are questions of not just finding meaning (balance and focus on where one is at) but also trying to acquire more material pleasure.

Way to strawman me. I am also looking for ways to make living better. For all.


But you don't know what you are doing. As a matter of fact you even stated that you automate things for you own pleasure so you can travel more. It is just hedonism.


I imagine when we stop dying from tooth aches at 25 we will find ways to keep ourselves busy. Say - enjoy life?



Save the "not make it to age 25" when we have an increasing number of young men shooting up schools, committing suicide, etc. due to an absence of quality of life. Also the increase in depression in the modern industrialized countries (evidenced by the increase used of pharmceuticals at minimum) is strictly just a death of the spirit for the younger and older generations.

What modern computing technology offer's is a long physical life at the expense of any sense of meaning. We are all dead regardless, quality being quantity every time.

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:27 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm Actually is just center's both. Action for actions sake does not solve any real problems it even creates them...hence your premise is faulty.

It's not for action's sake - it's for result's sake.


That is a loaded word. Result of what exactly? I can argue the same for philosophy. It is about reasoning to a proper result inherently observed by a balanced perspective.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm As to passivity, it has its time and place. If a man is at rest, content with what he is presented with...what harm is there in that considering the continual acquisition of resources in itself is about achieving this same goal?

Because:
1. Having resources means I can work on what I WANT to, not on what i HAVE to. If you work for a salary - you are a slave. I am still a slave to my customers, but it's the lesser of two evils.
2. Having fuck-you money enables me to do science on my own terms, not on the terms of the people funding my research.
3. Having money and resources means I can pay people to do my bidding.

Money is a tool. People who like money are pawns.


"Do what I want...Do what I want"....you sound like a child with a temper tantrum. Do you even know what you want? And what about what other's "want" and "need"?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm Pragmaticism uses the word "use" is a manner which cannot be answered either.

It can't be answered in language, but it can be shown/demonstrated in practice.

My point exactly...you demonstration that you are here proves how little value it has to you.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 pm Then why are you here? Your presense alone gives ample evidence that the method of life you are pursuing "is a waste of time" if you are here. Your presence alone, and the continual argumentation you provide, observes what you push does not work.

Because it's much easier to burn an institution down from the inside.


Burn it down?

ROFL!!!!

What are you going to do...create a computer program? Put the world in a little box like the philosopher's you condemn? ROFL!!!!

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:27 pm Actually they are replicating what they see. The "why" is the child existing as an extension of his environment because he knows he will feels separated if he does not follow this mirroring process.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Entropy, either through nature or the human condition. It is a house of cards, but the metal guarantees a longer time line...but a timeline none the less.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Second, high rise building are strictly for the rich...they are not needed.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm But you don't know what you are doing. As a matter of fact you even stated that you automate things for you own pleasure so you can travel more. It is just hedonism.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Save the "not make it to age 25" when we have an increasing number of young men shooting up schools, committing suicide, etc. due to an absence of quality of life.

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:40 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:27 pm Actually they are replicating what they see. The "why" is the child existing as an extension of his environment because he knows he will feels separated if he does not follow this mirroring process.

Who cares?

If you practice hygiene you don't die from dysentery.
If you don't practice hygiene you die from dysentery.

Whether you wash your hands because you are mirroring, or you have a PhD in epidemology - it doesn't matter.

The actual ritual of washing your hands matters.


And considering all ritual is a means of directing and forming a perspective, through how we interact with reality, how is not everything a ritual in one form or another? And how is ritual not necessary?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Entropy, either through nature or the human condition. It is a house of cards, but the metal guarantees a longer time line...but a timeline none the less.

Until we gain control of negentropy. Then we can experience time at any rate we wish.


And the rational proof for your claims?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Second, high rise building are strictly for the rich...they are not needed.

Until you run out of space. Then the only other way is up.

Large surface area cities have different set of problems to high-rise cities. Do some homework on the challenges civil engineers face.

And how does one run out of space is everything is space?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm But you don't know what you are doing. As a matter of fact you even stated that you automate things for you own pleasure so you can travel more. It is just hedonism.

Your confirmation bias is strong, eh? Yes. I like to travel. I also told you that I spend only 5-20% of my time traveling.

What do you think I do the other 90%?

I employ 30 people. I pay 65% taxes. And all my involvement with my community to teach children to program.
I employ 10% of the children whom I train.


Ahh I see, so you teach the children to create video games and put reality into a little box so they can hide from life.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Save the "not make it to age 25" when we have an increasing number of young men shooting up schools, committing suicide, etc. due to an absence of quality of life.

You lack perspective.

How many young men do this? 10 in 100000?
How many people grow up in poverty? 15%!

Again - you are focusing on the outliers, not the median.

And what is poverty? You seem to be focused on money over meaning. You keep claiming poverty...but what is poverty?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 pm And considering all ritual is a means of directing and forming a perspective, through how we interact with reality, how is not everything a ritual in one form or another? And how is ritual not necessary?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And the rational proof for your claims?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And how does one run out of space is everything is space?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Ahh I see, so you teach the children to create video games and put reality into a little box so they can hide from life.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And what is poverty?

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:58 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 pm And considering all ritual is a means of directing and forming a perspective, through how we interact with reality, how is not everything a ritual in one form or another? And how is ritual not necessary?

Ritual is VERY necessary. That's why we have rules and laws.

But if you don't understand WHY the ritual is beneficial, or the context in which it's beneficial you could end up performing the ritual in a context where it's either not required (e.g it's wasted effort) or in a context where it's actually harmful!

Ever driven to work on a public holiday? I have... Fucking rituals.

Formation of perspective is the ritual of rituals, and rationality is the universal one.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And the rational proof for your claims?

Computation is the acceleration of time. Monte Carlo simulations.
Virtual reality allows us to fuck with time.


Actually is creates an illusion of time, considering the observer must be fully invested in the act of movement. Virtual reality is just a form of lust for the eyes, it solves nothing and leads to psychological disruption by seperating the observer from not just the environment but causing the inability for any act of self-reflection through a continual barrage of self-made illusion.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And how does one run out of space is everything is space?

What proportion of this space is habitable by humans?

I'll let you run the numbers yourself.

Here's fun fact for you: Did you know that if the human population continues to grow at its current rate the observable Universe will be full of humans in 15000 years. No - that's not a mistake. That's how compound interest works.

And the human growth rate is expanding because of the same technology we create. Eventually the modern world, because of its belief system, will have to exterminate people. The technocratic philosophy sets the foundation for the same genocide it argues against.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Ahh I see, so you teach the children to create video games and put reality into a little box so they can hide from life.

I teach them how to be pragmatic problem-solvers who can apply decision theory to every-day life, not whiney metaphysicians.

Uhh, winey you mean like the e-mails you sent me describing your bouts of depression and how I need help? And my response (with current conditions much more dramatic than yours) that I am responsible for my ability to get through it? I see.

If I have absolutely nothing, and can make it through in accords to reason (which stems from the Divine Architect), and you have "everything" (lol..) who is the real weak one?


If the kids where truly taught to think for themselves they would not need to create illusions to live in.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And what is poverty?

Not having a meal 4/7 days a week?
Last time I checked people are still starving in third world countries because of the rape of there environment by 1st world countries and there technocratic means of reducing man to an object.


Having to spend 30% of your time walking to/from the nearest water source.
Walking is good exercise, saves one from having to go to a gym.

Not having access to schools or education.
Most creative thinkers teach themselves. Education is strictly just propaganda relative to the culture.


All those nice things that you take for granted.

Actually I eat 1 to 2 meals a day and feel fine.
I wish I could walk more, but the modern world does not allow such "time constraints".
"School"...it has not taught me or anyone anything of value in achieving a balanced happy life.

Look at all the chaos in the modern world,
Jobs being taking away by machines,
Families breaking up,
Children growing up in front of machines rather than playing outside and spending time with eachother,
the rise in psyche med use,
all the burnt out spinster women who will die alone because the men turned them into objects,
the young men who do not care about working in a society because it gives not hope of a balanced future,
etc.



Spare me your "sacrifice for mankind"...what are you some messiah? ROFL!!!

Everything you represent is "the problem". You are the entropy you claim is everywhere.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:11 pm Formation of perspective is the ritual of rituals, and rationality is the universal one.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Actually is creates an illusion of time, considering the observer must be fully invested in the act of movement. Virtual reality is just a form of lust for the eyes, it solves nothing and leads to psychological disruption by seperating the observer from not just the environment but causing the inability for any act of self-reflection through a continual barrage of self-made illusion.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And the human growth rate is expanding because of the same technology we create. Eventually the modern world, because of its belief system, will have to exterminate people

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Uhh, winey you mean like the e-mails you sent me describing your bouts of depression and how I need help? And my response (with current conditions much more dramatic than yours) that I am responsible for my ability to get through it? I see.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm If I have absolutely nothing, and can make it through in accords to reason (which stems from the Divine Architect), and you have "everything" (lol..) who is the real weak one?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm If the kids where truly taught to think for themselves they would not need to create illusions to live in.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Last time I checked people are still starving in third world countries because of the rape of there environment by 1st world countries and there technocratic means of reducing man to an object.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Walking is good exercise, saves one from having to go to a gym.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Most creative thinkers teach themselves. Education is strictly just propaganda relative to the culture.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm "School"...it has not taught me or anyone anything of value in achieving a balanced happy life.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Spare me your "sacrifice for mankind"...what are you some messiah? ROFL!!!

Everything you represent is "the problem". You are the entropy you claim is everywhere.

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:43 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:11 pm Formation of perspective is the ritual of rituals, and rationality is the universal one.

It's called learning. There is a system to it

Machine Learning, Neural Networks and AI are at the forefront of this research. Those bloody computers!


Yes that system is the act of reflection, mediated by the human condition and observed through the trillema/triad.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Actually is creates an illusion of time, considering the observer must be fully invested in the act of movement. Virtual reality is just a form of lust for the eyes, it solves nothing and leads to psychological disruption by seperating the observer from not just the environment but causing the inability for any act of self-reflection through a continual barrage of self-made illusion.

Then step it up to a brain-in-a-vat experiment. Only - we built the vat.


And what advantage is a brain in vat-experiment?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And the human growth rate is expanding because of the same technology we create. Eventually the modern world, because of its belief system, will have to exterminate people

Or we can just make cost of raising kids very high so people have less of them.
You are so quick to killing people! That's a terrible approach to problem-solving!


Actually you are arguing for elitism and the rich being in charge...this by its very nature is the grounding for genocides. So do you believe you are better than everyone else?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Uhh, winey you mean like the e-mails you sent me describing your bouts of depression and how I need help? And my response (with current conditions much more dramatic than yours) that I am responsible for my ability to get through it? I see.

Yes. It's called empathy. You can take an olive branch or piss on it.


Actually replacing the human condition with technological means is far from empathetic.

Why would I ask for help from someone who needs everything. I have nothing, but I keep going through a pursuit of balance. Why should I take you seriously?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm If I have absolutely nothing, and can make it through in accords to reason (which stems from the Divine Architect), and you have "everything" (lol..) who is the real weak one?

In 1975 the communist government in my country tortured and murdered my great grandfather before nationalising his farm lands. My parents grew up in poverty and social ostracism under the new regime under the stigma of "enemies of the state" (evil fucking capitalists!).
And just when you think it can't get any worse - communism collapsed. So we were social outcasts in a county with food, electricity and economic shortages of all sorts. What's happening in Venezuela now - I lived through it when I was 6 years old.

My parents sold their last possessions to buy me a 2nd hand computer from a rich family who didn't know what the fuck to do with it.

This is where I am today because of that choice.

Escaped from the shithole country. Retired at 35.

One opportunity and 30 years is all it took to go from the left side of the distribution to the right.


I see.

Your work ethic is to be commended; however,


Last time I check both capitalism and communism created the world we live in because of the very industrialization of the human condition that causes the very problems we perceive. Keep in mind all of these problems are rooted in man's place in a technological state, you are just replicating the same problem that you caused all the problem's you dealt with.

Me? Everyone I know is on a cell-phone and cannot even meet basic eye contact, or committing suicide, dying from avoidable health problems, drug addicts/herione, child sexual abuse, whoring around, various psychological issues, satanic cults, etc....


but this is only part of the issue and not a very dramatic one.


As a matter of fact I will give you the reward for the more dramatic of the stories.

But my argument, it can be relegated to one simple word: Desolation.


No drama. Just raw void of the human condition. Noone even has the balls to fight for anything, because there is nothing to even fight for, except to overcome all of it. In your world people had an outside "cause" to define them. My "cause"? Balance through the void.


Went to a bar in my area, just to "get out", almost had to kill a man with a knife last Friday when four of his buddies surrounded me. That is the most quality and honest face to face contact I had in a while...the rest is everyone on their phones...not much of options now are there? I mean sure one can take the role of entertaining the sheep with jokes and become popular (and it worked for me)...but that doesn't really give quality meaning to life now does it? It does not give real "pleasure". Being ganged up on or entertaining kids with stories all the time...both sides of the same coin to me.

So I work hard to leave...and you know what the options are? I can leave and go anywhere but it will be the same thing...people on their cellphones, ipads, etc.

Young men on porn.
Young men playing video games.
Young women on facebook all day.
Wife's looking up past lover's on facebook.
Husbands working to come home to kid's on computer's all day.
Same shit, in infinite variations.

The above is the "best case" scenario, the only other places are those in a state of perpetual war...so much for a "quality" existence?

One cannot work for money to buy a "quality" existence...the most they can do is buy false friends and cheap objects.


The silver lining for your story is a valid drama of overcoming chaos. Try overcoming raw "nothing"...not even chaos. This is why you deserve a movie to be made after your story. But this is why I deserve something more valuable...to live.

You see there is nowhere to go, nowhere to run, no warm home having sunday dinners with the wife and kids at the end of the day...not in the world I come from...not in the world being created everywhere. You cannot "buy" these things. You have to create this "quality" from "nothing". You cannot buy "warmth". You cannot program it. It must come from within. And it must be free.


Everyone keeps saying the atom-bomb is the most dangerous weapon man has created. But destroying the human condition by relegating man's identity to a simple "tablet" is far worse. After the bomb humanity was left. With the phone.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm If the kids where truly taught to think for themselves they would not need to create illusions to live in.

You have a very skewed perception of the field.


Not really, social media use is linked to a variety of physical and mental health problems, I am not sure how putting young men in front of boxes will give quality to there lives. Extend them? Yes... but for nothing real or of value.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Last time I checked people are still starving in third world countries because of the rape of there environment by 1st world countries and there technocratic means of reducing man to an object.

Last time I checked resource-rich 3rd world countries like Nigeria are still shitholes to live in.

Of course they are, because the technocratic states come in and exploit them through destabilization.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Walking is good exercise, saves one from having to go to a gym.

Way to miss the point. 30% of your time is spent obtaining basic necessities like water!

And sitting around in front of a computer watching porn is a more noble way to live? You are pushing a world view which by far is more degrading than what simple minded people have lived through...they at least practiced virtue in greater measurer.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Most creative thinkers teach themselves. Education is strictly just propaganda relative to the culture.

Sure. I am self-taught. All I had was a computer - no books. No theory.

I understand the theory now, but I learned the practice first.


What you learned is a framework. Try creating one from nothing.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm "School"...it has not taught me or anyone anything of value in achieving a balanced happy life.

Then find an area of inquiry that excites you - school was boring as fuck for me also.


Off topic, I am simply saying that the "schooling" you claim makes the world a better place does nothing of value but maintain a certain societal framework which is crumbling.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Spare me your "sacrifice for mankind"...what are you some messiah? ROFL!!!

Everything you represent is "the problem". You are the entropy you claim is everywhere.

And yet you still can't answer this simple question: In which year in the past and in which country would you rather live in?
And if you can't answer THAT, does it mean that the direction in which we are heading is the right way?

I would live in a time where a man was held in account for his actions, where his work was his exercise, where his wife and kids (as well as their happiness) are his priority, where man placed reaching divinity as a higher quality than trying to live on this earth forever, where young men were taught to be brave, young women were taught to be kind and loving, all life had value because of its intrinsic meaning, people addressed each other face to face with respect, a man could fight for what he believed in with the option of death, mankind not trying to overcome natural law but work with it, where people where genuine, accepting life as well as death, etc.

Something we cannot program through a computer, but have to be responsible for ourselves.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:51 am Yes that system is the act of reflection, mediated by the human condition and observed through the trillema/triad.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And what advantage is a brain in vat-experiment?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Actually you are arguing for elitism and the rich being in charge...

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm this by its very nature is the grounding for genocides. So do you believe you are better than everyone else?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Actually replacing the human condition with technological means is far from empathetic.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Why would I ask for help from someone who needs everything. I have nothing, but I keep going through a pursuit of balance. Why should I take you seriously?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Last time I check both capitalism and communism created the world we live in because of the very industrialization of the human condition that causes the very problems we perceive. Keep in mind all of these problems are rooted in man's place in a technological state, you are just replicating the same problem that you caused all the problem's you dealt with.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Me? Everyone I know is on a cell-phone and cannot even meet basic eye contact, or committing suicide, dying from avoidable health problems, drug addicts/herione, child sexual abuse, whoring around, various psychological issues, satanic cults, etc....

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm No drama. Just raw void of the human condition. Noone even has the balls to fight for anything, because there is nothing to even fight for, except to overcome all of it. In your world people had an outside "cause" to define them. My "cause"? Balance through the void.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Went to a bar in my area, just to "get out", almost had to kill a man with a knife last Friday when four of his buddies surrounded me. That is the most quality and honest face to face contact I had in a while...the rest is everyone on their phones...not much of options now are there? I mean sure one can take the role of entertaining the sheep with jokes and become popular (and it worked for me)...but that doesn't really give quality meaning to life now does it? It does not give real "pleasure". Being ganged up on or entertaining kids with stories all the time...both sides of the same coin to me.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm So I work hard to leave...and you know what the options are? I can leave and go anywhere but it will be the same thing...people on their cellphones, ipads, etc.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm
The silver lining for your story is a valid drama of overcoming chaos. Try overcoming raw "nothing"...not even chaos. This is why you deserve a movie to be made after your story. But this is why I deserve something more valuable...to live.

You see there is nowhere to go, nowhere to run, no warm home having sunday dinners with the wife and kids at the end of the day...not in the world I come from...not in the world being created everywhere. You cannot "buy" these things. You have to create this "quality" from "nothing". You cannot buy "warmth". You cannot program it. It must come from within. And it must be free.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Not really, social media use is linked to a variety of physical and mental health problems, I am not sure how putting young men in front of boxes will give quality to there lives. Extend them? Yes... but for nothing real or of value.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Of course they are, because the technocratic states come in and exploit them through destabilization.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And sitting around in front of a computer watching porn is a more noble way to live? You are pushing a world view which by far is more degrading than what simple minded people have lived through...they at least practiced virtue in greater measurer.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm What you learned is a framework. Try creating one from nothing.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Off topic, I am simply saying that the "schooling" you claim makes the world a better place does nothing of value but maintain a certain societal framework which is crumbling.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm I would live in a time where a man was held in account for his actions, where his work was his exercise, where his wife and kids (as well as their happiness) are his priority, where man placed reaching divinity as a higher quality than trying to live on this earth forever, where young men were taught to be brave, young women were taught to be kind and loving, all life had value because of its intrinsic meaning, people addressed each other face to face with respect, a man could fight for what he believed in with the option of death, mankind not trying to overcome natural law but work with it, where people where genuine, accepting life as well as death, etc.

Something we cannot program through a computer, but have to be responsible for ourselves.

Logik wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:28 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:51 am Yes that system is the act of reflection, mediated by the human condition and observed through the trillema/triad.

What I cannot create - I do not understand --Richard Feynman.

I know how to build Artificial Intligence that learns by itself.
I think I know a thing or 10 about the actual mechanisms behind "learning".

And that is why any conceptualization about a Divine Order transcending all of us is blasphemy to you.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And what advantage is a brain in vat-experiment?

In a vat of your own creation - you control the flow of time.


But you cannot create it from nothing.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Actually you are arguing for elitism and the rich being in charge...

Huh?!? At what point did I strike you as somebody who has any patience for authority?

I am about de-centralizing political power, not centralizing it!

Part and parcel for a programmer - distributed systems. Single points of failure (e.g governments) are a fucked up design.
I am much more fond of localised decision-making.

And my opinion is the same, the technocracy and scientific priestclass (like the Roman Catholics of the Middle Ages) create false problems and lies they cannot keep.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm this by its very nature is the grounding for genocides. So do you believe you are better than everyone else?

I don't know - you seem to insist on perpetuating human suffering. When I insist on using all tools at our disposal to improve life.
I don't know if I am better than "everyone else", but I am starting to think that you are a horrible human being.


Negating what is not needed negates the illusions which magnify and create further suffering. Computer's create an illusion about reality which is not real. Social media is founded on lies telling people to be what they should figure out by simple quiet time alone.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Actually replacing the human condition with technological means is far from empathetic.

There's another either-or strawman. You say replace - I say augment. Symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship.
I am actually getting bored with your relentless attempts to undermine everything I say. Bringing me closer and closer to think that you are an asshole.


That redefinition is a strawman...and that is what computing is founded upon a continual strawman redefiniton of reality where we divert all of our attention to made up problems and illusion.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Why would I ask for help from someone who needs everything. I have nothing, but I keep going through a pursuit of balance. Why should I take you seriously?

I need everything?
I need more than you because I build things. I don't know how to build without resources.

Do you?


That logical argument of the "Prime Triad" is rational proof one can have a system of logic that cannot be limited to a computer program alone. It is a perspective...far more than a computer can give.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Last time I check both capitalism and communism created the world we live in because of the very industrialization of the human condition that causes the very problems we perceive. Keep in mind all of these problems are rooted in man's place in a technological state, you are just replicating the same problem that you caused all the problem's you dealt with.

Which is why I am an Anarcho-Capitalist. Libertarian.


And I am a mortal man.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Me? Everyone I know is on a cell-phone and cannot even meet basic eye contact, or committing suicide, dying from avoidable health problems, drug addicts/herione, child sexual abuse, whoring around, various psychological issues, satanic cults, etc....

If you recognize that you are a product of your environment and you recognize that you can't fix it - it's time to change scenery.

That is why I no longer live in the country I was born in.
And I dislike spending time there. The pessimism that promulgates through the culture, the victim mentality, the lack of sense of purpose. It is soul-destroying.

My advice? Get out.

Oh yes, I would...please tell me a place where everyone is not on an Iphone. Where the men are self-composed and the women faithful. You really can't...the technocratic culture is a global machine. Trust me, if there is somewhere to go I would have left for it.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm No drama. Just raw void of the human condition. Noone even has the balls to fight for anything, because there is nothing to even fight for, except to overcome all of it. In your world people had an outside "cause" to define them. My "cause"? Balance through the void.

You can't fix the people without fixing the environment. Invent hope.

I am and the simple message is this: You do not need to be on your phone. The human condition is valuable. It's ability to put reason and form perspectives, which ground not just ourselves but holds reality together, is your sole responsibility. Man is the means and the ends.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Went to a bar in my area, just to "get out", almost had to kill a man with a knife last Friday when four of his buddies surrounded me. That is the most quality and honest face to face contact I had in a while...the rest is everyone on their phones...not much of options now are there? I mean sure one can take the role of entertaining the sheep with jokes and become popular (and it worked for me)...but that doesn't really give quality meaning to life now does it? It does not give real "pleasure". Being ganged up on or entertaining kids with stories all the time...both sides of the same coin to me.

Isn't that why you spend time on this forum? Seeking like-minded people? You are looking for your tribe.

By sound of things - your tribe may be Mathematicians or logicians. You will find plenty of those in universities.


My tribe are the men and women who seek truth no matter the cost, great or small. They can be strong or weak, straight or gay, sane or schizophrenic, black or white, IQ's of 180 or 75.

The only "tribe" I belong to is "mortal man".

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm So I work hard to leave...and you know what the options are? I can leave and go anywhere but it will be the same thing...people on their cellphones, ipads, etc.

There is a fundamental distinction between those are enslaved by the tool and those who wield it.

Those who wield a sword die by the sword.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm
The silver lining for your story is a valid drama of overcoming chaos. Try overcoming raw "nothing"...not even chaos. This is why you deserve a movie to be made after your story. But this is why I deserve something more valuable...to live.

You see there is nowhere to go, nowhere to run, no warm home having sunday dinners with the wife and kids at the end of the day...not in the world I come from...not in the world being created everywhere. You cannot "buy" these things. You have to create this "quality" from "nothing". You cannot buy "warmth". You cannot program it. It must come from within. And it must be free.

It comes from security. From prospective future. From lack of despair. From purpose/vision.

He who has a why can bear any how.


An the only "why" reason dictates is that all being is meaningful in and of itself and cannot be manipulated or controlled.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Not really, social media use is linked to a variety of physical and mental health problems, I am not sure how putting young men in front of boxes will give quality to there lives. Extend them? Yes... but for nothing real or of value.

You are focusing on the box, and not on its value. Putting decision theory to practice is broadly applicable to all of life.

Game theory, systems theory, probability theory - it applies broadly to all decision-making and problem-solving. Beyond the world of programming.


Moderation: The embracement of both extremes while becoming none and the golden rule saves us from all theory while allowing for it.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Of course they are, because the technocratic states come in and exploit them through destabilization.

Yeah... Zimbabwe did it all on its own.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm And sitting around in front of a computer watching porn is a more noble way to live? You are pushing a world view which by far is more degrading than what simple minded people have lived through...they at least practiced virtue in greater measurer.

I am pushing for a world where automation means you don't have to do menial jobs.
If you want to do menial jobs - do them. Programming is also a menial job - if you do it for its own sake.

I don't. I program so I don't have to do boring, repetitive/mechanical shit.

I compute - all the time!


All jobs are menial as all jobs are just focal points of existence. Man's place of "working out one's salvation" cannot be overrouted without creating further complications. The question is less of creating a better world though invention but observing what is need and want to eliminate what is unncessary; then making all needs one's want's so there is no deception.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm What you learned is a framework. Try creating one from nothing.

Why would I want to re-invent the wheel? I am happy to stand on the shoulders of giants.

The wheel is what is going to put an end to the modern way of life.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm Off topic, I am simply saying that the "schooling" you claim makes the world a better place does nothing of value but maintain a certain societal framework which is crumbling.

Yeah. People have been predicting gloom&doom for millenia. And yet - we continue moving forward.


Hence my point about trying to divert some extinction level of event...it was always there, will always be.

Ran out of time.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:07 pm I would live in a time where a man was held in account for his actions, where his work was his exercise, where his wife and kids (as well as their happiness) are his priority, where man placed reaching divinity as a higher quality than trying to live on this earth forever, where young men were taught to be brave, young women were taught to be kind and loving, all life had value because of its intrinsic meaning, people addressed each other face to face with respect, a man could fight for what he believed in with the option of death, mankind not trying to overcome natural law but work with it, where people where genuine, accepting life as well as death, etc.

Something we cannot program through a computer, but have to be responsible for ourselves.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Give me a year and a country.