Philosophy Now Forum

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:58 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:38 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:31 am
Not sure of your points above.

I'll try;

Say there are two states of affairs.
Marble-A moving in one direction.
Marble-A knock into Marble-B.
Marble-A stop and Marble-B moves forward.

One can explain the above in terms of Newton's Law.

Generally it is said Marble-A caused the effect of Marble-B moving.
Hume will insist such a principle of cause and effect is illusory.
What had happened is due to psychological activities of customs, habit and constant conjunction within the mind of the person.

Think of marble A knock into marble B. A was moving, consider this state as X, and then B moves, consider this state as Y. X causes Y. This means that X and Y coexist. This is logically impossible since two states of affair cannot coexist.

Re Yin-Yang,
State Y intrinsically has the the state of X.
Within Y there are already movements of atoms and electrons just as X is movement.
Thus the two states co-exist.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:47 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:58 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:38 pm
Think of marble A knock into marble B. A was moving, consider this state as X, and then B moves, consider this state as Y. X causes Y. This means that X and Y coexist. This is logically impossible since two states of affair cannot coexist.

Re Yin-Yang,
State Y intrinsically has the the state of X.
Within Y there are already movements of atoms and electrons just as X is movement.
Thus the two states co-exist.

You missed my point. There is only one state of affair at any given moment thus the two state cannot coexist.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:42 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:47 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:58 am
Re Yin-Yang,
State Y intrinsically has the the state of X.
Within Y there are already movements of atoms and electrons just as X is movement.
Thus the two states co-exist.

You missed my point. There is only one state of affair at any given moment thus the two state cannot coexist.

Why not, a state of ice co-exists as a state of a cluster/bundle of H20 molecules at the same time albeit from different perspectives.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pm Time is an illusion and it persists.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pm Time is an illusion and it persists.

Let's say there are no clocks. Still there is morning, afternoon and night.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm Are you saying that in morning there is no afternonn and night?

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm Where is the illuion and where does it come from?

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:07 pm Let's say you are in a cave and I am in a cave.

I walk to get out of the cave.

How do you get out of the cave?

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:25 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:42 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:47 pm
You missed my point. There is only one state of affair at any given moment thus the two state cannot coexist.

Why not, a state of ice co-exists as a state of a cluster/bundle of H20 molecules at the same time albeit from different perspectives.

By state I mean a given configuration of physical.

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:57 pm

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pm Time is an illusion and it persists.

Let's say there are no clocks. Still there is morning, afternoon and night.

Yes. But you need an experiencer who is able to cause the illusion that we perceive so called material.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm Are you saying that in morning there is no afternonn and night?

No, but we have to remember that that is mere experienced and sustain it. You need a mind to cause material, illusion.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm Where is the illusion and where does it come from?

The fact that it can be caused. Mind experiences and causes it for us. Something which can be caused is an illusion.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:55 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:25 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:42 am
Why not, a state of ice co-exists as a state of a cluster/bundle of H20 molecules at the same time albeit from different perspectives.

By state I mean a given configuration of physical.

Ice and its corresponding bundle of H20 molecules are the same configuration of physical in different states which co-exists.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:12 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:57 pm

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm
Let's say there are no clocks. Still there is morning, afternoon and night.

Yes. But you need an experiencer who is able to cause the illusion that we perceive so called material.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm Are you saying that in morning there is no afternonn and night?

No, but we have to remember that that is mere experienced and sustain it. You need a mind to cause material, illusion.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:44 pm Where is the illusion and where does it come from?

The fact that it can be caused. Mind experiences and causes it for us. Something which can be caused is an illusion.

You got it wrong in thinking there is a mind that caused illusions.

Initially what we have is "whatever" we later labelled as a bundle of matter, atoms, quarks, particles.
The combination of these elements enables the emergence of the human forms, the mind, and events the mind could experience, etc.

The mind and the stimuli [brain] that which trigger an experience are different. The mind do not cause the illusions. The illusions are emergence of the human conditions. The mind is also an emergence of the human conditions.
For example the 'fright and flight' instinct is not caused by the mind but experienced by the mind subsequent to it being triggered instantly.
It is the same with illusions which are triggered by certain parts of the brain and are experienced by the experiential mind.

Your premise that the mind cause illusion and experience it is wrong!
Thus whatever conclusions that follow from it are false.
That is why your inferences on this topic is very messy.

The point is,
it is the brain* that are the major cause of an illusion and the mind experiences its after effects.
*If there is anything to do with the mind, that is secondary and not critical.