Ptolemy, Copernicus, Secularism, and Universalism

[Nick_A]

Because we are as we are, everything is as it is. As we are there is nothing to learn which will change things.

Did you not start this thread with; "It dawned on me that we are at the beginning of a paradigm shift from earthly Secularism to Universalism."?

How do you now propose human beings get to that change without learning, some thing new?

Was is not the LEARNING OF 'actually the earth does revolve around the sun instead of the other way around' that was part of the catalyst change for a paradigm shift to occur from one thing to secularism?

If that was the case, then would it not again take the LEARNING OF some thing, anew again, for another paradigm shift from secularism to some thing new like what you call "universalism"?

Is it not true that there actually NEEDS to be some thing TO LEARN, which will actually change things?

For the very fact that if there is nothing to learn, then nothing will change, regarding human beings and their behavior.

As I see it, as human beings are, then there is actually some thing TO LEARN, which will change things.

I wasn't referring to learning new facts. This won't effect human being because it is just head knowledge. You can learn that fire is hot but you won't understand it until you are burned. I was referring to a higher quality of intellect or intuition which effects our being or the entirety of the human organism. It does so by reconciling the contradictions the hypocrisy of the human condition produces. Impartial contemplation without judging right or wrong but just consciously experiencing it will produce an "aha" experience from a higher perspective. Fighting over right and wrong armed with facts will never effect the human condition. This is just fighting heads. A person must experience their duality for what it is within their collective being in order to become themselves. They must become willing and able to "know thyself."

Sincere efforts to know thyself must be hated by a secular society maintained by indoctrination. Their rarity and what they awaken us to is one reason this minority is as hated as it is.

Socrates was killed primarily because he proved no one knew what piety is and he was corrupting the youth of Athens by creating doubt. This is obviously too intolerable to be allowed. Has it changed? No.

America was intended to be a free country but what is freedom? This is like asking what piety is. No one knows but to admit it is intolerable. All that happens is people argue about who is free. But who knows what it means to be free? Individuals may experience what it is but the grand collective of society or the Great Beast cannot understand so the beat goes on.

[Age]

Because we are as we are, everything is as it is. As we are there is nothing to learn which will change things.

Did you not start this thread with; "It dawned on me that we are at the beginning of a paradigm shift from earthly Secularism to Universalism."?

How do you now propose human beings get to that change without learning, some thing new?

Was is not the LEARNING OF 'actually the earth does revolve around the sun instead of the other way around' that was part of the catalyst change for a paradigm shift to occur from one thing to secularism?

If that was the case, then would it not again take the LEARNING OF some thing, anew again, for another paradigm shift from secularism to some thing new like what you call "universalism"?

Is it not true that there actually NEEDS to be some thing TO LEARN, which will actually change things?

For the very fact that if there is nothing to learn, then nothing will change, regarding human beings and their behavior.

As I see it, as human beings are, then there is actually some thing TO LEARN, which will change things.

I wasn't referring to learning new facts. This won't effect human being because it is just head knowledge. You can learn that fire is hot but you won't understand it until you are burned. I was referring to a higher quality of intellect or intuition which effects our being or the entirety of the human organism. It does so by reconciling the contradictions the hypocrisy of the human condition produces. Impartial contemplation without judging right or wrong but just consciously experiencing it will produce an "aha" experience from a higher perspective. Fighting over right and wrong armed with facts will never effect the human condition. This is just fighting heads. A person must experience their duality for what it is within their collective being in order to become themselves. They must become willing and able to "know thyself."

Sincere efforts to know thyself must be hated by a secular society maintained by indoctrination. Their rarity and what they awaken us to is one reason this minority is as hated as it is.

Socrates was killed primarily because he proved no one knew what piety is and he was corrupting the youth of Athens by creating doubt. This is obviously too intolerable to be allowed. Has it changed? No.

America was intended to be a free country but what is freedom? This is like asking what piety is. No one knows but to admit it is intolerable. All that happens is people argue about who is free. But who knows what it means to be free? Individuals may experience what it is but the grand collective of society or the Great Beast cannot understand so the beat goes on.

What you say I agree with, in that that is how human beings behave and misbehave now. That is just the human being for you. But once they DISCOVER and/or LEARN HOW to LOOK AT things correctly, and thus be able to gain the understanding of ALL things, then they can evolve and move on up to the next, far more enlightened, level. BUT, what IS NEEDED for that paradigm shift is the LEARNING OF some thing anew first.

Just like with EVERY major shift, a discovery NEEDS to happen FIRST, by some, and then SHARED with and LEARNED by the others.

[Nick_A]

Age

What you say I agree with, in that that is how human beings behave and misbehave now. That is just the human being for you. But once they DISCOVER and/or LEARN HOW to LOOK AT things correctly, and thus be able to gain the understanding of ALL things, then they can evolve and move on up to the next, far more enlightened, level. BUT, what IS NEEDED for that paradigm shift is the LEARNING OF some thing anew first.

Just like with EVERY major shift, a discovery NEEDS to happen FIRST, by some, and then SHARED with and LEARNED by the others.

Can we agree that knowing is not the same as understanding? Knowing is theoretical while what we do is determined by what we understand. Education places an emphasis upon what we know and it is obvious we can increase our knowledge. But how do we increase are capacity to acquire an experiential human understanding which enables us to reflect a more human universal perspective? The universal perspective is already known. The problem is violent emotional rejection. What prevents the mind and heart from opening to new understanding of what should be normal for human "being?"

[Walker]

What you say I agree with, in that that is how human beings behave and misbehave now. That is just the human being for you. But once they DISCOVER and/or LEARN HOW to LOOK AT things correctly, and thus be able to gain the understanding of ALL things, then they can evolve and move on up to the next, far more enlightened, level. BUT, what IS NEEDED for that paradigm shift is the LEARNING OF some thing anew first.

All that's needed is to change the view, then understanding of all things is changed.

[Age]

Age

What you say I agree with, in that that is how human beings behave and misbehave now. That is just the human being for you. But once they DISCOVER and/or LEARN HOW to LOOK AT things correctly, and thus be able to gain the understanding of ALL things, then they can evolve and move on up to the next, far more enlightened, level. BUT, what IS NEEDED for that paradigm shift is the LEARNING OF some thing anew first.

Just like with EVERY major shift, a discovery NEEDS to happen FIRST, by some, and then SHARED with and LEARNED by the others.

Can we agree that knowing is not the same as understanding?

Yes.

Knowing is theoretical while what we do is determined by what we understand.

To a certain degree.

Education places an emphasis upon what we know and it is obvious we can increase our knowledge. But how do we increase are capacity to acquire an experiential human understanding which enables us to reflect a more human universal perspective?

Very simply and easy, by just looking at things differently from how you human beings are doing it now. HOW do you that? By LEARNING how to.

The universal perspective is already known.

Yes totally agree, but human beings do NOT know how to find IT and SEE (understand) IT.

The problem is violent emotional rejection.

That is NOT a problem. A 'problem' is just[i[/i] So, pose the question properly, and then the solution can be found.

What prevents the mind and heart from opening to new understanding of what should be normal for human "being?"

1. By misusing the word 'Mind', as you have just done so, and NOT understanding what the 'Mind' actually IS and NOT knowing how It actually works prevents opening to new understanding.
2. Again, by misusing the word 'heart' that prevents opening to new understanding.
3. Thinking/believing what should be "normal" for human beings, that what is not yet understood, prevents opening to new understanding.(Exactly how human beings are now is perfect and normal. Human beings like ALL animals evolve. Human beings are at the perfectly normal place in the evolutionary position of things. They will come to KNOW and understand far more than they do now, when and only when they learn HOW to look at things differently from how they do it now.)
4. Making assumptions and having beliefs is a huge STOP and what prevents from LEARNING HOW to open up to gaining anew understanding.

Plus there are many other things also, which all fall into place when the above is fully understood.

[Age]

What you say I agree with, in that that is how human beings behave and misbehave now. That is just the human being for you. But once they DISCOVER and/or LEARN HOW to LOOK AT things correctly, and thus be able to gain the understanding of ALL things, then they can evolve and move on up to the next, far more enlightened, level. BUT, what IS NEEDED for that paradigm shift is the LEARNING OF some thing anew first.

All that's needed is to change the view, then understanding of all things is changed.

Yes very true. But how do you change THE view?

Does a person have to LEARN some thing new in order to be able to do some thing new, like changing HOW they view things?

Obviously, human beings can NOT change THE view. What IS, just IS. Things are how they Really are, so THAT THE True view can NOT change. But the human being can certainly change how THEY view, things.

So that THEY can then look at and SEE the actual Real Truth of things.

[Walker]

The view is changed by an external force interrupting the continuity of reality.

For instance, they say that every anti-gunner is a pro-gunner yet to be mugged.

[Age]

The view is changed by an external force interrupting the continuity of reality.

I am not sure what this means. Any examples?

For instance, they say that every anti-gunner is a pro-gunner yet to be mugged.

Who is 'they'?

Seems like an extremely ridiculous thing to say , to me.

[Walker]

The view is changed by an external force interrupting the continuity of reality.

I am not sure what this means. Any examples?

Something outside of your head, like getting hit by a truck.

For instance, they say that every anti-gunner is a pro-gunner yet to be mugged.

Who is 'they'?

You know who they are.

Seems like an extremely ridiculous thing to say , to me.

Lighten up, cowboy.

[surreptitious57]

Does a person have to LEARN some thing new in order to be able to do some thing new like changing HOW they view things

Not necessarily because becoming more open minded can be something that evolves naturally and does not require learning as such
I have certainly become more open minded over time [ neutrally minded is a better description that applies to me ] I see no reason
to waste mental energy on being dogmatic so I simply avoid this as much as possible. I am more of an observer than a participant in
such matters as much of the time I have no strong opinion on things although I am interested in them from a knowledge perspective

[Age]

Does a person have to LEARN some thing new in order to be able to do some thing new like changing HOW they view things

Not necessarily because becoming more open minded can be something that evolves naturally and does not require learning as such
I have certainly become more open minded over time [ neutrally minded is a better description that applies to me ] I see no reason
to waste mental energy on being dogmatic so I simply avoid this as much as possible. I am more of an observer than a participant in
such matters as much of the time I have no strong opinion on things although I am interested in them from a knowledge perspective

Is free will possible?

[Age]

The view is changed by an external force interrupting the continuity of reality.

I am not sure what this means. Any examples?

Something outside of your head, like getting hit by a truck.

So, in order for the view to change some sort of LEARNING needs to take place?

[surreptitious57]

Free will is not possible because the sub conscious preempts decisions by the conscious
The illusion of free will though is maintained because the conscious does not know this

[Walker]

I am not sure what this means. Any examples?

Something outside of your head, like getting hit by a truck.

So, in order for the view to change some sort of LEARNING needs to take place?

Learning implies the gaining of additional knowledge, which is not necessary.

What happens is a reordering of what is known, and this provides new meaning.

The reordering is at the root, or the view, and this puts new light on the leaves that were already there.

[Age]

Does a person have to LEARN some thing new in order to be able to do some thing new like changing HOW they view things

1. Not necessarily because becoming more open minded can be something that evolves naturally and does not require learning as such

2. I have certainly become more open minded over time [ neutrally minded is a better description that applies to me ]

3. I see no reason to waste mental energy on being dogmatic so I simply avoid this as much as possible.

4. I am more of an observer than a participant in such matters as much of the time I have no strong opinion on things although I am interested in them from a knowledge perspective

Free will is not possible because the sub conscious preempts decisions by the conscious
The illusion of free will though is maintained because the conscious does not know this

1. and 2. How much actual, what you incorrectly call, "open minded" or "neutrally minded" is there in your last quote here? In regards to OPENNESS human beings are devolving, and NOT evolving. (And, 'you' are one very example of this fact, as you will once again evidence with your own writings.)

3. You appear to be very dogmatic regarding this issue here, and do not appear to be simply avoiding it at all. (As evidenced in your writing here.)

4. You do not appear to be just an observer at all, and appear to be a participant in this such matter. (As evidenced in your writing here.)

Just maybe the reason WHY you appear to be NOT, what you would call, "open minded" at all regarding this matter IS because you have not yet discovered nor LEARNED how to be more open and/or Truly OPEN yet? Just some thing to consider.

I have already explained countless times already in this forum HOW you, human beings, can become far more OPEN so that you ALL can start moving up the evolutionary ladder and gaining a much higher and greater consciousness over-sight of knowledge and of an understanding of ALL things. BUT even just saying this does NOT bring out any curiosity at all but rather an opposing and very strongly already held view, assumption, and/or belief, of which you ALL will TRY TO fight for.

The very thing that you, human beings, are continually doing, here in this forum, is what is preventing and stopping all of you human beings from evolving out of that stupid human being and up and into the next level of being, of which you human beings will eventually evolve into being, and becoming.

BUT, naturally human beings can only create, do, and achieve some thing once they LEARN how to do it. Human beings can NOT evolve out of their stupidity UNTIL they LEARN and GAIN the KNOW-HOW of HOW to.