Philosophy Now Forum

Rule of thumb: avoid the -stans.

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:36 pm Now, it's all too easy to offer the shallow answer to this incident: that would be to say, "Well, people are good, but Islam is bad." While it's entirely obvious that Islam is an immoral, ignorant and brutally homicidal creed, we have to ask ourselves this deeper question: from where did this deep evil in Islam come? Unless I miss my guess, you're going to have to say, "Human beings invented Islam." But if you say that, then those humans are themselves the authors and producers of the evil. It could come from nowhere else. Where then is your moral optimism about human nature?

I always thought it was a weird phrasing of words to say someone 'invented' a religion. Depending on what definition you use, there needs to be a conscious intention for something to be 'invented,' and older religions often fall into this weird place when we consider that. Scientology, as an example was very obviously invented as a means to control people, so you could say there was a conscious effort to create something evil, there. However, when we get to the Judaeo-christian faiths, its exact history is a lot murkier. There's a reason why historians are typically specific enough to use the word 'founded' rather than 'invented,' as someone would with a contemporary religion.

I agree there is a difference between modern cults which is easily associated with a person [Hubbard, Rev Moon, Sai Baba and the likes] and ancient religions which are quite grey and uncertain.

From what I have gathered it not likely for the Buddha, Christ nor Muhammad to have a direct intention to start a religion. The individuals concern may have preached their views in the olden days like what some are doing in forums and elsewhere in blogs.

Then some interested groups collected their presentation and others into a compilation and assigned to a person which is more palatable for spiritual seekers. E.g. the Nicea Council.
The Quran was written long after the death of Muhammad to support the imperialistic drive of certain group of people. One set 7000+ Ahadiths were compiled from 700,000 pieces of points from all over the place.
The story of Buddha is merely a myth to galvanize the main principles of Buddhism established by some interested group of people.

Anyway, the point I'm getting to, is a sort of differentiation between human 'evil' and 'stupidity.' Scientology was obviously invented with a malicious intent, so you could definitely impute that onto our 'moral nature.' However, when it comes to Islam, someone could probably make a good case that Muhammad genuinely believe he was god's chosen one. I mean, I'm not totally sure because to be honest, I'm not that well informed on the founding of islam, particularly. I'm only saying it may not have been created out of pure hatred within the essence of human nature - rather of pure stupidity.

Basically what underlies all religion is an existential crisis in all humans that compel individuals to seek relief via various means.
Religions and theism is the easiest balm to relieve the existential angst.
The other is drugs, politics, games, job, hobbies and other forms of diversions.

Even now, most people are attracted to something from a charismatic and convincing source as a mean to divert, suppress or relief their existential angst.
What is critical here is whether the convincing and seductive source is laden with good and/or evil elements.

Religions like Buddhism and Jainism do not have any evil elements. Hinduism and Christianity are reasonably good and has little negative/evil laden elements.

However Islam the ideology is a different kettle of fish and is loaded with tons of evil elements that seduce and compels innocent seekers of existential balms to commit terrible evils to earn and sustain the relief from the inherent existential angst.
It was stated, Islam the ideology is worst that Main Kampf in terms of anti-semitism as shown in this research.

http://cspipublishing.com/statistical/T ... _Text.html
Notice that the Trilogy has more Jew hatred than Mein Kampf.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:36 pm While it's entirely obvious that Islam is an immoral, ignorant and brutally homicidal creed, we have to ask ourselves this deeper question: from where did this deep evil in Islam come? Unless I miss my guess, you're going to have to say, "Human beings invented Islam." But if you say that, then those humans are themselves the authors and producers of the evil. It could come from nowhere else. Where then is your moral optimism about human nature?

So ask yourself: if human beings are so "good," how is it that evil has even come to exist at all?

Now, there's a good question for you.

From christianity. Duh!

"Naive Bikers Killed by Islamists"

No. Two morons were killed by predators.

Coulda happened in Chicago, New Orleans, on the Texas/Mexico border, in Britain, Germany, or France.

Don't get me wrong: Islam is for shit and folks who adhere to that prehistoric crap are deficient, but that ain't the issue here.

No, the issue is stupid sheltered children who think they're immune cuz they they have 'good feelings' about people.

They got exactly what they deserved.

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:45 am Anyway, the point I'm getting to, is a sort of differentiation between human 'evil' and 'stupidity.' Scientology was obviously invented with a malicious intent, so you could definitely impute that onto our 'moral nature.' However, when it comes to Islam, someone could probably make a good case that Muhammad genuinely believe he was god's chosen one.

Could you? How?

The story goes this way: an absolutely illiterate man (Muslims are actually proud of that fact), claims to have been in a cave and had a vision. After that, he tries to broadcast his religion, but is rejected by his own countrymen. He goes into exile, and comes back as a bloodthirsty conqueror, subjugates his homeland, and starts wiping out "infidels" wherever he can find them.

After his death, many different people have scraps and fragments of things that they claim Muhammed "said." These are collected by Muhammed's followers. Those that are deemed by them authentic are retained, and the allegedly inauthentic ones are burned. The remainders are placed in to a kind of book shape, the fragmentary sayings being organized by length. And that's the Koran.

For the next ten centuries, his followers crusade across North Africa and southern Europe. They kill those who will not submit. They kill even their own intellectuals, if they seem more tolerant than the conservatives. They eventually conquer up as far as Vienna, where they lose decisively. After that, Islamic imperialism shrinks; and eventually, they become what you see today.

All that's not even controversial. The most ardent Muslim will tell you that's exactly how it went. So what part of that would convince us that Muhammed was sincere? I wouldn't know how to check, either way. But even were he sincere, I wouldn't think that would count for anything -- after all, a man can be sincerely wrong. I would say that what Jesus Christ (whom even the Koran claims is a prophet) said of trees applies: "by their fruits you shall know them." So we might ask, "What did Muhammed produce?"

I mean, I'm not totally sure because to be honest, I'm not that well informed on the founding of islam, particularly. I'm only saying it may not have been created out of pure hatred within the essence of human nature - rather of pure stupidity.

Stupidity is obviously a vice as well. But we might ask why ignorance in a human creature seems to issue in evil, rather than in neutrality or in accidental good, even. It would seem that whoever human nature is not carefully governed, it immediately issues in bad things. And I don't think even a post-Enlightenment Atheist would disagree with that assessment.

So why is that? What well of evil exists within the ungoverned human personality that creates such things?

Now, in all this, "intention" does have a role to play. It's better to want good things than bad, surely. But strictly in light of the outcomes we might well ask, what does "intention" matter? As the old saying goes, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." We often do evil while loudly declaiming our commitment to the good. For example, to promote "choice" we murder over a billion babies in the last half century. To raise a nation from corruption and humiliation, we start a world war. To advocate for "justice" we freely vilify everybody we see as associated with the "injustice" -- even those who have had absolutely no historical connection with that "injustice." In short, good intentions don't seem to abate evil at all; rather, they are often used to dignify and excuse it.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:24 pm "Naive Bikers Killed by Islamists"

No. Two morons were killed by predators.

Coulda happened in Chicago, New Orleans, on the Texas/Mexico border, in Britain, Germany, or France.

Don't get me wrong: Islam is for shit and folks who adhere to that prehistoric crap are deficient, but that ain't the issue here.

No, the issue is stupid sheltered children who think they're immune cuz they they have 'good feelings' about people.

They got exactly what they deserved.

Perhaps. But are we better, Henry, if we were to decide to join those who keep on believing in the intrinsic goodness of mankind, even while their women are raped, their children are assaulted and their cities begin to burn? They are playing peek-a-boo with evil, acting like if they refuse to see IT, IT cannot possibly "see" them. And that's an extraordinary kind of stupidity.

I don't know that stupidity warrants death. Maybe in a survival-of-the-fittest world, it does. But I wouldn't say it does in my world. I'd still blame the Islamic murderers primarily, though these bikers sure did nothing to help themselves by being so unbelievably naive.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:58 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:24 pm "Naive Bikers Killed by Islamists"

No. Two morons were killed by predators.

Coulda happened in Chicago, New Orleans, on the Texas/Mexico border, in Britain, Germany, or France.

Don't get me wrong: Islam is for shit and folks who adhere to that prehistoric crap are deficient, but that ain't the issue here.

No, the issue is stupid sheltered children who think they're immune cuz they they have 'good feelings' about people.

They got exactly what they deserved.

Perhaps. But are we better, Henry, if we were to decide to join those who keep on believing in the intrinsic goodness of mankind, even while their women are raped, their children are assaulted and their cities begin to burn?

No. I don't think you should join islam. But surely Americans can't ALL be 'evil'?

(I love quoting cowards who have me on ignore )

If I eat too much gutbuster pizza, drink too much beer: a severe case of the drizzly shits is the deserved consequence.

If I skip into the middle of a lion pride buck nekkid: being eaten alive is the deserved consequence.

Either way: I get exactly what I deserve.

In the case of our intrepid (stupid) cyclists: I'm thinkin' the consequence is perfectly deserved.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:24 pm "Naive Bikers Killed by Islamists"

No. Two morons were killed by predators.

Coulda happened in Chicago, New Orleans, on the Texas/Mexico border, in Britain, Germany, or France.

Don't get me wrong: Islam is for shit and folks who adhere to that prehistoric crap are deficient, but that ain't the issue here.

No, the issue is stupid sheltered children who think they're immune cuz they they have 'good feelings' about people.

They got exactly what they deserved.

In general I agree with you.

BUT in this case, the killers claimed they were doing it for Islam and ISIS declared they were responsible for it.
In the above case as shown in a viral video, the killers has passed the 7 cyclists on the opposite side but deliberately turned around their car and drive into the 7 cyclists and there upon came out of their car to knife them.

The theory is if there is no Islam to command its believers to kill non-believers then the above fatal incident could not have happened at all.

I get what you're sayin', Veri, and you're not wrong, but I'm stuck with the idea that 'dead is dead' and dead for the cyclists has more to do with their willingly swimmin' with sharks than the sharks.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:03 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:24 pm "Naive Bikers Killed by Islamists"

No. Two morons were killed by predators.

Coulda happened in Chicago, New Orleans, on the Texas/Mexico border, in Britain, Germany, or France.

Don't get me wrong: Islam is for shit and folks who adhere to that prehistoric crap are deficient, but that ain't the issue here.

No, the issue is stupid sheltered children who think they're immune cuz they they have 'good feelings' about people.

They got exactly what they deserved.

In general I agree with you.

BUT in this case, the killers claimed they were doing it for Islam and ISIS declared they were responsible for it.
In the above case as shown in a viral video, the killers has passed the 7 cyclists on the opposite side but deliberately turned around their car and drive into the 7 cyclists and there upon came out of their car to knife them.

The theory is if there is no Islam to command its believers to kill non-believers then the above fatal incident could not have happened at all.

I think it's fairly obvious that muslims in general ignore instructions to carry out murder that may or may not be in the koran, just as christians in general ignore all the murder that god instructs them to do in their book of fairy tales. But haven't you noticed how unbalanced it all is? How many muslims have been murdered by American christian crusaders this century?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:24 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:03 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:24 pm "Naive Bikers Killed by Islamists"

No. Two morons were killed by predators.

Coulda happened in Chicago, New Orleans, on the Texas/Mexico border, in Britain, Germany, or France.

Don't get me wrong: Islam is for shit and folks who adhere to that prehistoric crap are deficient, but that ain't the issue here.

No, the issue is stupid sheltered children who think they're immune cuz they they have 'good feelings' about people.

They got exactly what they deserved.

In general I agree with you.

BUT in this case, the killers claimed they were doing it for Islam and ISIS declared they were responsible for it.
In the above case as shown in a viral video, the killers has passed the 7 cyclists on the opposite side but deliberately turned around their car and drive into the 7 cyclists and there upon came out of their car to knife them.

The theory is if there is no Islam to command its believers to kill non-believers then the above fatal incident could not have happened at all.

I think it's fairly obvious that muslims in general ignore instructions to carry out murder that may or may not be in the koran, just as christians in general ignore all the murder that god instructs them to do in their book of fairy tales. But haven't you noticed how unbalanced it all is? How many muslims have been murdered by American christian crusaders this century?

It is explicit within the Quran where Allah exhorts Muslims to kill non-believers in various circumstances. Therefore the ideology of Islam is to be blamed for killings by Muslims who are compelled by their God to kill as a divine duty in exchange for eternal life.

There is no explicit command by Jesus Christ in the NT exhorting Christians to kill non-believers or specifically Muslims. Note, in principle the NT overrides the OT.
Rather Christ commanded Christians in an overriding pacifist maxim to love their enemies, neighbors and every one else.
In this case we cannot blame Christianity for the evil acts of the crusaders - then or now.

I can guess what would have happened when the crusaders [those who had killed or intent to kill] met with Christ and God on Judgement Day;

• Christ to Crusaders: WTF happened to you!! I commanded you to love your enemies, not kill them!! You are to be sent to Hell!

Point is Christians who are true to the teachings of Christs will not kill due to fear of punishment on Judgment Day. Those 'Christians' who killed did not do it as Christians per se but driven to do so as any ordinary humans by their inherent human nature of evil.

This is what will happen with Allah and Muhammad;

• Allah & Muhammad to Jihadists; Yo.. give me five. You are the greatest of among all believers for killing so many disbelievers. You shall be rewarded with the grandest sensual delights with 72 permanent-virgins you can f.. 24/7.

Muslims who killed will often quote various evil laden texts [there are many] from the Quran and Ahadith. This critical 'SOME' Muslims are compelled to commit these evil acts sanctioned by Allah as a divine duty in exchange for a promise of eternal life in heaven.
What is most scary is if this critical 'some' is 20% we have 300 million [? to be reduced accordingly] of evil prone Muslim around the world with such evil intent.
Even if it is 1% we have 15 million and even one lone wolf can create terrible havoc.

Hope you can see the difference.
It is the same with 'Buddhists' in Myanmar and elsewhere who kill and commit other evil acts. It has nothing to do with Buddhism per-se which do not have any evil laden texts at all to inspire them to kill in the name of their religion.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:26 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:24 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:03 am In general I agree with you.

BUT in this case, the killers claimed they were doing it for Islam and ISIS declared they were responsible for it.
In the above case as shown in a viral video, the killers has passed the 7 cyclists on the opposite side but deliberately turned around their car and drive into the 7 cyclists and there upon came out of their car to knife them.

The theory is if there is no Islam to command its believers to kill non-believers then the above fatal incident could not have happened at all.

I think it's fairly obvious that muslims in general ignore instructions to carry out murder that may or may not be in the koran, just as christians in general ignore all the murder that god instructs them to do in their book of fairy tales. But haven't you noticed how unbalanced it all is? How many muslims have been murdered by American christian crusaders this century?

It is explicit within the Quran where Allah exhorts Muslims to kill non-believers in various circumstances. Therefore the ideology of Islam is to be blamed for killings by Muslims who are compelled by their God to kill as a divine duty in exchange for eternal life.

There is no explicit command by Jesus Christ in the NT exhorting Christians to kill non-believers or specifically Muslims. Note, in principle the NT overrides the OT.
Rather Christ commanded Christians in an overriding pacifist maxim to love their enemies, neighbors and every one else.
In this case we cannot blame Christianity for the evil acts of the crusaders - then or now.

I can guess what would have happened when the crusaders [those who had killed or intent to kill] met with Christ and God on Judgement Day;

• Christ to Crusaders: WTF happened to you!! I commanded you to love your enemies, not kill them!! You are to be sent to Hell!

Point is Christians who are true to the teachings of Christs will not kill due to fear of punishment on Judgment Day. Those 'Christians' who killed did not do it as Christians per se but driven to do so as any ordinary humans by their inherent human nature of evil.

This is what will happen with Allah and Muhammad;

• Allah & Muhammad to Jihadists; Yo.. give me five. You are the greatest of among all believers for killing so many disbelievers. You shall be rewarded with the grandest sensual delights with 72 permanent-virgins you can f.. 24/7.

Muslims who killed will often quote various evil laden texts [there are many] from the Quran and Ahadith. This critical 'SOME' Muslims are compelled to commit these evil acts sanctioned by Allah as a divine duty in exchange for a promise of eternal life in heaven.
What is most scary is if this critical 'some' is 20% we have 300 million [? to be reduced accordingly] of evil prone Muslim around the world with such evil intent.
Even if it is 1% we have 15 million and even one lone wolf can create terrible havoc.

Hope you can see the difference.
It is the same with 'Buddhists' in Myanmar and elsewhere who kill and commit other evil acts. It has nothing to do with Buddhism per-se which do not have any evil laden texts at all to inspire them to kill in the name of their religion.

So, the NT 'overrides' the OT? Hahaha, when it suits you hahahha!

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:51 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:26 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:24 pm
I think it's fairly obvious that muslims in general ignore instructions to carry out murder that may or may not be in the koran, just as christians in general ignore all the murder that god instructs them to do in their book of fairy tales. But haven't you noticed how unbalanced it all is? How many muslims have been murdered by American christian crusaders this century?

It is explicit within the Quran where Allah exhorts Muslims to kill non-believers in various circumstances. Therefore the ideology of Islam is to be blamed for killings by Muslims who are compelled by their God to kill as a divine duty in exchange for eternal life.

There is no explicit command by Jesus Christ in the NT exhorting Christians to kill non-believers or specifically Muslims. Note, in principle the NT overrides the OT.
Rather Christ commanded Christians in an overriding pacifist maxim to love their enemies, neighbors and every one else.
In this case we cannot blame Christianity for the evil acts of the crusaders - then or now.

I can guess what would have happened when the crusaders [those who had killed or intent to kill] met with Christ and God on Judgement Day;

• Christ to Crusaders: WTF happened to you!! I commanded you to love your enemies, not kill them!! You are to be sent to Hell!

Point is Christians who are true to the teachings of Christs will not kill due to fear of punishment on Judgment Day. Those 'Christians' who killed did not do it as Christians per se but driven to do so as any ordinary humans by their inherent human nature of evil.

This is what will happen with Allah and Muhammad;

• Allah & Muhammad to Jihadists; Yo.. give me five. You are the greatest of among all believers for killing so many disbelievers. You shall be rewarded with the grandest sensual delights with 72 permanent-virgins you can f.. 24/7.

Muslims who killed will often quote various evil laden texts [there are many] from the Quran and Ahadith. This critical 'SOME' Muslims are compelled to commit these evil acts sanctioned by Allah as a divine duty in exchange for a promise of eternal life in heaven.
What is most scary is if this critical 'some' is 20% we have 300 million [? to be reduced accordingly] of evil prone Muslim around the world with such evil intent.
Even if it is 1% we have 15 million and even one lone wolf can create terrible havoc.

Hope you can see the difference.
It is the same with 'Buddhists' in Myanmar and elsewhere who kill and commit other evil acts. It has nothing to do with Buddhism per-se which do not have any evil laden texts at all to inspire them to kill in the name of their religion.

So, the NT 'overrides' the OT? Hahaha, when it suits you hahahha!

Otherwise there would be a contradiction, i.e. god is violent [OT] and god is not violent. [NT]

Nope, not that it suits me, this overriding point is supported by the beliefs of most Christians and it make sense in the context of the older OT and the later NT verses.

Note in the case of the Quran there is also an element of abrogation where the later Medinian violent verses override the older Meccan milder verses.

Philosophy Explorer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:48 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:25 pm

-1- wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:51 am

By the same token, we should not blame Americans, human beings, but we must make it a point to understand that American foreign politics in a major part is inherently evil. Don't live in the Middle East if yo don't want to be bombed by the American Air Force. Dangerous!!

How many Americans voice opposition to their military? How many criticise it? None? There you go then. All yanks are complicit.

Complicit means being involved in a wrong or illegal activity which clearly doesn't apply here so you're wrong. And how do you know that some Americans aren't opposed?

PhilX

And that's why VGT was wright. Or now you are saying, philosopher, that it is RIGHT to bomb and raze foreign countries who had done nothing wrong to you, and kill their livestock, their wives, their children, their culture?

If you are indeed saying that, and you still insist that "complicit" was the wrong word to use here, then you surprise nobody, because you stay true to your form.