Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing, I am relieved you have taken my response in such good spirit. Thank you. It’s not that I don’t believe there is some truth in the patriarchy, toxicity, male dominance narrative, it’s just that I believe it is overwhelmed at the moment by the sex-denial, sharp tongue, female dominance narrative. You believe it is the other way round, I know, and think I am confusing levels of human experience, public with private. I think it is an appropriate comparison. How else can you explain the collapse of masculinity and the rise of women? Where else is women’s power coming from?

I try to focus on truthfulness rather than the truth, and see it playing out in conversations -- most ideally conversations between men and women who are strangers. I am not sure there is a ‘broader truth’ than that -- can you tell me what you were thinking of? Despite me being an engineer, I am not very impressed with scientific truth -- I see it as a distraction from that most honourable of occupations: the sex war.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:37 am

Nope, the assertions were jarring from the outset and later on veered towards the grotesque.

Fail. Sorry. Try again. Next time at least try to be a little bit realistic. Thank you.

Greta, I’m sorry I did not impress you. Can you come up with a rationale for the current gross imbalance against men?

If you want to impress, lad, lift your game :Þ

It is mostly old men exploiting everyone and decimating a generation of both boys and girls.

I think young men have been most targeted by youth-hating conservative politicians because they present the greatest threat to order due to their physical abilities and restlessness. So they are being especially crushed, as is anyone who dares attract attention. They are also being impacted by the decline in educational standards. Also note an increasing number of young women losing the plot with booze, ice and violence in ways you wouldn't have expected in the past.

The problem is not just one for males, but for young people generally, who are essentially being bunted up the quoit by the dominant conservative baby boomers in power. Damn sad to watch.

Greta wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:37 am

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:37 am

Nope, the assertions were jarring from the outset and later on veered towards the grotesque.

Fail. Sorry. Try again. Next time at least try to be a little bit realistic. Thank you.

Greta, I’m sorry I did not impress you. Can you come up with a rationale for the current gross imbalance against men?

If you want to impress, lad, lift your game :Þ

It is mostly old men exploiting everyone and decimating a generation of both boys and girls.

I think young men have been most targeted by youth-hating conservative politicians because they present the greatest threat to order due to their physical abilities and restlessness. So they are being especially crushed, as is anyone who dares attract attention. They are also being impacted by the decline in educational standards. Also note an increasing number of young women losing the plot with booze, ice and violence in ways you wouldn't have expected in the past.

The problem is not just one for males, but for young people generally, who are essentially being bunted up the quoit by the dominant conservative baby boomers in power. Damn sad to watch.

There is nothing new to that, although the insulted have been known to suffer horrific psychic shocks when emerging from Kumbaya. Only those who fall into it are immune from paying dues. It’s why privates get the grunt work even though they have greater potential. Same goes for burger flippers and ditch diggers. The apprentice gets to sweep the dirt before sitting on the helm that makes the dirt. Recent college graduates are consultants in name only.

Greta, you think old men (like me) are to blame for the poor circumstances of young people, and I agree … but not for the same reasons. You think we men have too much power over young people, whereas I think we have too little. Do you think old men really want the anti-social behaviour you describe? Do you think old men want drunken girls?, want them prematurely sexualised by pornography? No, men have lost control and it is a terrible mess.

Thank you for your concern for young boys -- particularly their education, which is a disaster. As to whether conservatives are more to blame than anyone else I am not so sure. It is labour that has instituted women-only lists. I see democracy declining as women’s political influence grows. Certainly men’s influence has to decline in step with women’s ascent, and I believe that is what is causing the youth problem, as per above.

Forgive me if I seem a little shallow -- with my massive focus on the the war between the sexes I have not thought very much about the war between the generations.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:14 amI see democracy declining as women’s political influence grows.

Correlation does not equal causation. Think again, Dunc.

At present I am dealing with an old friend who is unemployed and suicidal - too old, unskilled and screwed up to work, being thrown on the scrapheap. Then there's my nephew's young pals - many unemployed and floundering. So far the only one who has committed suicide was one of the girls (age 23), but there will be more following I expect, most at risk being a lad with an online gambling addiction and others with ice addictions (my nephew does not take drugs BTW).

Walker would no doubt suggest that they deserve to die for being weak. Welcome to psychopathic 2018, run by old male psychopaths.

Do you think that, with the fifty richest people owning as much as the poorest 3.5 billion people, there are no ramifications? How many of those multi-billionaires pay tax? Who loses when they don't? How many of those billionaires who are driving the current situation are male? How much influence do you think they have on the plight of young people today?

Greta, I’m so sorry you are having such a horrible time with the old and young people in your life. I have virtually no contact with young people in my retirement, estranged as I am from my family. I cannot think of anything to help, but I hope things improve soon.

I agree that the gap between the rich and the poor is unacceptable -- both between individuals and between countries. But again, I think the reason capitalism has got so out-of-hand is because men have lost control, not because they are too controlling. We are letting the market rule us, rather than us ruling the market, and I think this happens when women have too much power.

I don’t know who you mean by ‘Walker’. Is he a politician? Sounds like a nasty character.

I accept I cannot prove causation (reference ‘woman-power degrades democracy’), but we both seem to agree that the cause of many modern ills is the balance of power between the sexes. So the question boils down to who is bullying whom. You think men have the whip handle, I think women have it. If you just compare what women are allowed to say in public about the sex war compared with what men are allowed to say, it seems you would have to agree with me.

Thanks very much for your interest.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:37 am Skip, I’m sorry -- I did not explain enough.

You didn't need to. The initial exposition was self-explanatory. In fact, the less said about it, the better.

I believe there is good logic, following all the rules, that is gender neutral.

And I believe there is neither good nor bad logic; neither male nor female nor transgender logic; neither canine nor feline nor equine logic; neither Earth not Mars nor Alpha Centauri logic - there is jut logic. When reasoning fails, that's illogic. When reasoning is subverted or corrupted, that's usually propaganda of one kind or another - the gods know, there are a thousand kinds and shades of the damn stuff!
And so do you.

It would be interesting, Duncan, to hear what you think women are supposed to be? Where do they belong? What should they be doing? What are they capable of?

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:21 am It’s not that I don’t believe there is some truth in the patriarchy, toxicity, male dominance narrative, it’s just that I believe it is overwhelmed at the moment by the sex-denial, sharp tongue, female dominance narrative.

You say "at the moment". So why is it such an issue for you when compared with eons of male dominance? Can you not understand an uprising of the oppressed?

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:21 amHow else can you explain the collapse of masculinity and the rise of women?

Perhaps men are evolving to realize what assholes they have been to everyone... and now they want to be women too?

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:21 amWhere else is women’s power coming from?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Women have always had kickass power -- when you consider their care-taking abilities of so many people beyond themselves. That takes wisdom, awareness, strength, love, and all of the skills required by any CEO. They just don't typically railroad over and attack everybody, because they're more interested in a BIGGER PICTURE and COOPERATION.

Maybe now (through evolution) they've reached a new level of being pissed... and like a hornet's nest, they're going to destroy the threats that can no longer be ignored.

It's nature, Duncan... can you see that?

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:21 am I am not sure there is a ‘broader truth’ than that -- can you tell me what you were thinking of?

There is ALWAYS a broader truth than what you are thinking. As a man, you probably like to choose a focus and then man-blast all of your power and attention on that, thereby neglecting/ignoring other things which you don't think are as important. But that's just your singular focus and your ego and your agenda at work. It is a smaller truth and a smaller picture. It is the power of brute force... and it's nasty in the way it thoughtlessly/foolishly demolishes all else.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:53 pm I think the reason capitalism has got so out-of-hand is because men have lost control, not because they are too controlling. We are letting the market rule us, rather than us ruling the market, and I think this happens when women have too much power.

So you're blaming women rather than male stupidity? Do you seriously not see the mentality that you're perpetuating?

Since women are still not represented equally in the workforce and in top management positions, and yet you're complaining about how much power women have: Why do you think men should have more power than women do? What proof is there that men can "run the world" better than women, or better than a balance?

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:53 pmIf you just compare what women are allowed to say in public about the sex war compared with what men are allowed to say

Okay, seriously, Duncan... why don't you compare what men have been saying to women for far longer, which women were not allowed to say at all?

The statements you make demonstrate a point of view that is very fixed and limited -- so although this discussion is fun, I don't know how any "answers" will make a difference to you. So how honest is that?

Skip, please forgive me, but I am determined to distinguish between the sexes whenever possible. I believe it is men’s responsibility to keep the sexes as separate as possible, women’s to make them the same as much as possible. This can be seen in children’s upbringing and in the fashion scene. Men’s suits have held fast for 100 years, for example, while women’s fashion changes four times a year. They often try to look as masculine as possible, wearing trousers and waistcoats.

Similarly, I see a big difference in the way the typical man and woman break the rules of logic (see Lacewing, above). That’s what I call male and female logic -- both disparaging terms. The term the feminists use for male logic is ‘phallocentric dogmatism’ -- so they appear to agree with me, while preferring to use more elaborate words.

* * *

Lacewing, you are right: you are dealing with a very stubborn man with pretty fixed opinions -- I do change them, but not very often, and probably not in the direction you would like. I’ve always thought equality of outcome between the sexes was a nonsense, for example (calling for 50% female politicians is a feminist trick), but in the last few weeks I’ve come to see that equality of opportunity is also misconceived. Boys have the opportunity to become men, girls have the opportunity to become women. I am very heartened to see your enthusiasm for characterising how men argue, for example (as distinct from women), and I mostly agree with you. I just don’t think men’s ways are any smaller or any nastier than women’s.

If that is not enough to put you off, I have to confess that my theories about the sex war, patriarchy, men and women in conversation, etc. seem to be unique -- I’ve yet to meet anyone else who subscribes to anything like the concoction I’ve come up with. I hope, nevertheless, that you may be interested to talk a while longer?

You ask what I think women are supposed to be. I see men and women as equally valuable human beings, equally responsible for children, the future of mankind, and the formation and maintenance of our joint morality. But there are many spheres where we are not equal. Here is a link to a list of the areas where I think women are intellectually superior -- i.e. these characteristics women are supposed to excel at, compared to men.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... jI0NDMyMmE

You ask: Where do women belong? What should they be doing? What are they capable of? I’ve gone on for far too long, so I will keep it short. Women should be locked in loving combat with men, both in public and private, forevermore. They should be seeking their own fulfilment and that of the men and women around them -- especially their husband. Both men and women are capable of greater things, when they work together, fight together.

I’m sorry I used the term ‘at the moment’ when describing my belief about women dominating men. I can see it is seriously misleading. It is only so severe ‘at the moment’, but I believe it started 25 million years ago, when the female primate learnt to deny sex overnight (common ancestor with baboons). Ever since then male dominance has been a fiction maintained by both male and female -- by the male in a desperate attempt to salvage some of his hurt pride, and by the female to make sure he still feels responsible for her and the children.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:40 pm Lacewing, you are right: you are dealing with a very stubborn man with pretty fixed opinions -- I do change them, but not very often, and probably not in the direction you would like.

It has nothing to do with "the direction I'd like" -- it has to do with you being too intoxicated with your view to be clear and honest.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:40 pm I’ve always thought equality of outcome between the sexes was a nonsense

So you're going to stick with that so that your ego can convince itself that you've always been right.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:40 pmcalling for 50% female politicians is a feminist trick

No... it's saying that men shouldn't monopolize and control everything with their primitive egos and limited perspectives -- such as you are demonstrating so well. Women see other angles that are very necessary to the well-being of all. You just don't get it. Evidently you don't have the "wiring". So I guess it's not your fault. But it's still sort of disgusting.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:40 pmI’ve yet to meet anyone else who subscribes to anything like the concoction I’ve come up with.

That's because it's ridiculous.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:40 pmI hope, nevertheless, that you may be interested to talk a while longer?

I'm replying so that you can't accuse me of being another woman who "withholds" from you. So this is it... enjoy it... because you're not being honest and clear enough to keep communicating with. So don't say I walked away without giving you an explanation, or that I withheld my love unfairly. You're being ridiculous and unbalanced, and no woman should have to put up with that.

Lacewing, thank goodness -- I thought you had dismissed me out-of-hand without saying goodbye. You are right about me not being clear enough -- after reading what I had written to you, my closest friend berated me for exactly that -- and I apologise. I was trying to fit in too much in my reply. Here’s what I meant about preferring truthfulness over truth (from an essay I am writing):
* * *
I try to speak truthfully, rather than trying to speak the truth. It sounds like a play on words, but it is far more serious than that. Speaking the truth is a treacherous guide — all you have to do is avoid explicit lying. It allows irrelevant truths to distract or mislead, and by omitting truth you can in effect lie. Speaking truthfully, on the other hand, focusses on the listener, and finds the most relevant truth for him. It prevents you from leaving out something which would annoy him, if he knew you had left it out.
* * *
I understand you being upset, but your attack on me still rather bemuses me. While avoiding engaging any one of my arguments you call me, “intoxicated, ridiculous, primitive ego, limited perspectives, disgusting, dishonest”, and complain that I, “monopolise and control everything (me along with all men!).” I am so sad you were not impressed with my list of female excellences -- I’ve never seen it anywhere before.

I am also sad to end on such a down note, but if that’s the way you want it then I wish you good fortune for the future and thanks for talking to me.

Duncan Butlin

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 am I understand you being upset

I was not upset.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 amyou call me, “intoxicated, ridiculous, primitive ego, limited perspectives, disgusting, dishonest”

Right. I did it joyfully and truthfully.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 amI am also sad to end on such a down note

I'm sorry that's how it is for you. That's not how it is for me.

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 amI wish you good fortune for the future and thanks for talking to me.

Thanks! I wish you the same.

Lacewing, please contact me in the future if you change your mind.

duncan_butlin1@mac.com
https://sites.google.com/site/suffrageurbutlin/

Duncan Butlin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:40 pm Skip, please forgive me, but I am determined to distinguish between the sexes whenever possible. I believe it is men’s responsibility to keep the sexes as separate as possible, women’s to make them the same as much as possible.

No, I don't think that's possible. Probably not any of it, but I can be certain only of the first.
I have neither the capacity nor the inclination to forgive you.
You seem indifferent to the harm that you do: that's unpardonable.

Skip wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:22 pm You seem indifferent to the harm that you do: that's unpardonable.

Skip, I am not aware that I am causing any harm. Please elaborate.