Philosophy Now Forum

osgart wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:59 am Has anyone proven that perception isnt actuality? The conception of reality is where one has to be as accurate as possible. Just sayin'

Proof is perception as proof is an axiom.

axioms make willows weep

-Imp

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:39 pm Suppose a man takes a woman out on a date. She really looks great and they end up in bed together. The next morning this woman with her makeup gone appears and acts to be a different woman. He goes home and asks himself: "which was the real woman?" How accurate was his perceptions of her both before and after?

Both of his perceptions are shallow and idiotic... which is probably representative of his entire approach to life.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:04 pm axioms make willows weep

-Imp

Thanks for the axiom.

I think it depends on how you look at it. If something has been observed as trustworthy, it is worth a gamble and may in fact be accurate to your experiences/trusted based on empirical things, but the things we claim are bound to a paradigm which may not be completely accurate (like how things have been falsified in the sciences before). Additionally, there are times where you're certain something is true but it blinds your understanding of the world, so your perceptions filter out conflicting information.

Can we trust our perceptions? We can. We should. We must.

As many have pointed out, not trusting our perceptions can be calamitous. To trust something other than our perceptions has not been proposed here. What is there, then, other than our perceptions, that can be relied upon to reveal reality to us? I say, nothing.

Suppose I drive my car and arrive at an intersection with a traffic light. The light could be red or green; my perception could be right or wrong.

If my perception is correct, traffic will continue to flow normally. If incorrect, though, I could create a line of angry drivers behind me or, worse yet, cause bodily harm to myself and others.

If I trust my perception, I will take action either by going through the intersection or by applying the brakes. By trusting my senses, either traffic could proceed safely or there could be a horrible accident. The chance for either outcome is 50/50.

If I distrust my senses, I will either act or I won’t. If I take action, the results and their chances are the same as above. If I don’t act, leaving my foot on the gas pedal and allowing the car to continue on. I will be paralyzed by indecision. By luck the outcomes and chances are the same.

In practice, it would be fair to say that the car would eventually run out of gas. This changes nothing. There would likely be other perceptions along the way as well as actions to take or not take. There would simply be more decisions to make while either trusting perceptions or not.

I would, in effect, be paralyzed from the first instance on of not trusting my senses. My life would be overtaken by events in whatever fashion they might occur. I could choose to live this way, but most people would not.

If I choose not to live a life of paralysis, either I could make decisions by a toss of a coin or I could rely on my senses. Relying on a coin flip would provide the correct probabilities, but would do so independent of what is real. Since I have nothing else to trust other than my perceptions, I must rely upon my perceptions to show me reality.

commonsense wrote:Since I have nothing else to trust other than my perceptions, I must rely upon my perceptions to show me reality.

Why not rely on them to show you fantasy (non-reality)? From what basis do you determine your perceptions are real as opposed to non-real?

Claiming your perceptions are more real than non-real is without any basis.

Your belief that driving in traffic is more real than hallucinating the same is without any basis.

"is your reality (that you perceive) real? ...or is it illusion/dream/hallucinations/etc., ...how can you know and trust it as so?"

This comes up frequently in conversations about 'solipsism'. My response: I believe the world I perceive is real, exists outside and independent of me, simply cuz I know for a fact I'm too friggin' dumb to be makin' all that shit up.

RG1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:10 pm

commonsense wrote:Since I have nothing else to trust other than my perceptions, I must rely upon my perceptions to show me reality.

Agreed, but is your reality (that you perceive) real? ...or is it illusion/dream/hallucinations/etc., ...how can you know and trust it as so?

Roy Orbison hologram
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf_4LLbj7zg

They’re only going to get better with this stuff.

commonsense wrote:Since I have nothing else to trust other than my perceptions, I must rely upon my perceptions to show me reality.

Why not rely on them to show you fantasy (non-reality)? From what basis do you determine your perceptions are real as opposed to non-real?

Claiming your perceptions are more real than non-real is without any basis.

Your belief that driving in traffic is more real than hallucinating the same is without any basis.

henry quirk wrote:This comes up frequently in conversations about 'solipsism'. My response: I believe the world I perceive is real, exists outside and independent of me, simply cuz I know for a fact I'm too friggin' dumb to be makin' all that shit up.

Maybe your imagination is very imaginative?

If only that were so, but -- nope -- I got the imagination of a trunip. Also: I'm a bastid, but I'm not particularly cruel, and a lot of what happens in the world is (cruel). No, the world (reality) is real (exists independent of lil old me).

Henry, you are too hard on yourself.

Also, what are the odds that perceptions are of reality? Certainly less than 50/50, ...right?

"Henry, you are too hard on yourself."

I think I'm pretty freakin' great, but I'm honest...again: no how, no way, is reality the product of my mind.

#

"Also, what are the odds that perceptions are of reality? Certainly less than 50/50, ...right?"

I say the odds my perceptions of reality are accurate (that I perceive the world 'as it is') are close to 100%. I say 'close to' cuz I guess there's some small chance (less than one percent) that I'm wrong and reality 'is' a product of my imagination.

Henry Quirk wrote:I say the odds my perceptions of reality are accurate (that I perceive the world 'as it is') are close to 100%. I say 'close to' cuz I guess there's some small chance (less than one percent) that I'm wrong and reality 'is' a product of my imagination.

How could you know one way or the other?