Philosophy Now Forum

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:34 pm "An abstraction is an abstraction, it doesn't have an effect" according to you... and what we understand of these "mathematical laws" are abstractions.

The abstract? In a brief sentence: "form through space."

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:42 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:34 pm "An abstraction is an abstraction, it doesn't have an effect" according to you... and what we understand of these "mathematical laws" are abstractions.

Yes of course. This universe, or this part of this universe, works in a certain way (having to do with the Anthropic principle probably), and we make abstractions about this certain way. That's what maths and constants are all about, what else would they be?

The abstract? In a brief sentence: "form through space."

What does this mean? Abstract thinking is in the human head, and then written on paper etc., what does it have to do with form through space?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:49 pm What seperates the space of the abstract from that which we deem as physical, considering the barriers which separate both are dimensions nonetheless? (With dimension existing as a boundary)

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:52 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:49 pm What seperates the space of the abstract from that which we deem as physical, considering the barriers which separate both are dimensions nonetheless? (With dimension existing as a boundary)

There is no space of the abstract. Do you mean you have the Platonic world of ideas and perfect forms belief, or something like that?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:54 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:52 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:49 pm What seperates the space of the abstract from that which we deem as physical, considering the barriers which separate both are dimensions nonetheless? (With dimension existing as a boundary)

There is no space of the abstract. Do you mean you have the Platonic world of ideas and perfect forms belief, or something like that?

Abstractness, as strictly form, is inseparable from space for abstractness is merely space reflecting upon itself. We can observe this with geometry, mathematical symbols, qualitative forms such as color.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:59 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:54 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:52 pm

There is no space of the abstract. Do you mean you have the Platonic world of ideas and perfect forms belief, or something like that?

Abstractness, as strictly form, is inseparable from space for abstractness is merely space reflecting upon itself. We can observe this with geometry, mathematical symbols, qualitative forms such as color.

Not really. There is reality, you are reflecting on reality, making abstractions, forms about reality, inside your head. That's all there is to it. Abstract thinking is a type of thinking in the human head.

You seem to be adding a universal circularity to this that isn't there.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:01 pm Okay, lets look at is from another perpective, reality is formed through physical laws. The mind, through the various senses, in turn is composed of these physical laws or at least exists through them. Does that mean the physical universe leads to abstraction?

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:06 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:01 pm Okay, lets look at is from another perpective, reality is formed through physical laws. The mind, through the various senses, in turn is composed of these physical laws or at least exists through them. Does that mean the physical universe leads to abstraction?

Reality is not formed through physical laws, that's completely backwards thinking. We derive laws from what we observe. As I said they are abstractions. Abstractions wield no power.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:09 pm But what we observe is based in a strictly physical sense (considering the laws you state are laws of physics) according to you.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:15 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:09 pm But what we observe is based in a strictly physical sense (considering the laws you state are laws of physics) according to you.

There is really only one reality and it isn't chopped up into physical and mental (and abstract) realms, if that's what you mean. These laws of physics hold for the one reality.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:16 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:15 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:09 pm But what we observe is based in a strictly physical sense (considering the laws you state are laws of physics) according to you.

There is really only one reality and it isn't chopped up into physical and mental (and abstract) realms, if that's what you mean. These laws of physics hold for the one reality.

But do they form the abstract realities, considering according to you, the abstract is not entirely real?

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:20 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:16 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:15 pm

There is really only one reality and it isn't chopped up into physical and mental (and abstract) realms, if that's what you mean. These laws of physics hold for the one reality.

But do they form the abstract realities, considering according to you, the abstract is not entirely real?

There are no abstract realities. There is abstract thinking in the human head.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:21 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:20 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:16 pm

But do they form the abstract realities, considering according to you, the abstract is not entirely real?

There are no abstract realities. There is abstract thinking in the human head.

But the human head is literally formed from the physical laws, and the physical laws are defined and made as laws through mathematical/logical/geometric abstraction.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:26 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:21 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:20 pm

There are no abstract realities. There is abstract thinking in the human head.

But the human head is literally formed from the physical laws, and the physical laws are defined and made as laws through mathematical/logical/geometric abstraction.

No. The world we see is a certain way, the human head is a part of that. Physical laws are abstractions, descriptions of that certain way. Abstractions themselves wield no magical power.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:27 pm If they wield no power, not even that of definition, then do we really observe any law at all?