Philosophy Now Forum

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:56 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:40 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:21 am What is meaning but an act of balance? Who seeks meaning when already living a balanced life?

Is life is without meaning, why do people seek meaning from other people by asking that question?

I'm not sure if meaning and balance are that closely related. I think it's more like this: usually, a meaningful life means more contenment, happiness. And a balanced life also means more contenment, happiness. So when balance is lacking, the person may try to compensate for it by looking for more meaning.

How is meaning not balance if meaning acts as a form of mediation? Take for example I draw a symbol and claim it "means" "x". The symbol, in turn acts as medial point between the observe and "x". In these respects meaning, is a form of crysatalizing reality into a structure, in this case the symbol, which acts as a center point. To observe a lack of meaning, in these respects, implies a lack of clarity or structure. Balance and meaning are synonymous in the respects that they are necessary for structure...structure for order...order for being.

Why do people seek meaning if life is without meaning? Because the need for meaning is a natural human need, we are naturally built to be motivated, to be driven by meaningful things. And this worked for a few hundred thousand/million years until some people figured out that meaning is something we project on the world. It's all just a trick of nature.

Is that the meaning of meaning? Someone claimed we project meaning, what is the meaning of that exactly? Who said this discovery was recent?

Everything is a centerpoint for something else, meaning exists whether we intend it or not as the very act of observation is very act of meaning itself. We observe as a form of mediation between rationality and irrationality. Observation is the synthesis of being in the respect is acts of neutral grounds for being and non-being. We observe "x" and in turn we actualize as "z" or exterioralize "y". Observation, in these respects is a form of meaning in itself, and we can observe this in the nature of axiom as self-evidence being both subjective and objective.

Observation is the median point of irrationality and rationality.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand your comment. My question was about meaning as in: inherent purpose / significance / what's-the-point-of-life stuff. I'm not sure but you seem to be talking about meaning as in: abstraction, interpretation.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:02 am Good question! Yes, I think that ALL meaning is made-up. However, that doesn't make it worthless! Just like building a fantastic sand castle on the beach before the tide comes back in. It's fun, it's beautiful, and we might even assign meaning to it, and then the tide washes it away. Was it a waste of time and energy? Not if we enjoyed it and/or got something valuable (in the moment) out of doing it.

Human beings are the only form of life on Earth who like and need stories... and we often spin ourselves up tightly in that like some kind of bug. It's not necessary -- we don't have to have major stories for everything. We can have fun (and find value) playing with stories and being entertained by them consciously OR unconsciously. If we tap into being conscious about our creations every once in awhile -- then we probably won't end up being immobilized by them.

Some people freak out over the idea that life has no bigger meaning than what we make up. But for those who are comfortable with freedom, it opens up all kinds of opportunities. It's wonderful (and divine!) to see and acknowledge that we are creating meaning, joy, entertainment, all-of-it in every moment. We're not limited to certain patterns or influences, and we don't have to wait for some kind of "end point" in a big story. We can be fully vibrant in each moment... kind, loving, happy, or whatever (we don't need a god to tell us so)... and we can be at peace knowing that we'll naturally dissolve back into the Universe when our time comes. No reason to cling nor to give up early.

Well yeah, in time I also learned to embrace that remarkable and unexpected kind of freedom that comes with meaninglessness. Given the choice, I'd rather choose a genuinely meaningful life, but this kind of infinite mental freedom is also quite good.

Enjoyment, value, sure. I find that a quite umm.. optimal approach, after we realized the inherent meaninglessness of things. I more or less have the same attitude as you.

The way you talk about value, valuable things, confuses me a little though, those are also made up so I can't ever completely immerse myself in "value". However I thought about it and yes, I am capable of seeing things as valuable. I am not capable of seeing things as meaningful. Looks like there is some kind of difference here somewhere.

Metazoan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:30 pm Hi Atla.

Have you looked at The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus?

I haven't read it yet but it is on my reading list.

The jist I think is that you have three options (but this may be a third parties view):-

1) Physical suicide.
2) Philosophical suicide (religion, denial, etc.)
3) Acceptance.

Being a multiversist, idealist, and hard determinist the first option is denied me.

The second option is denied me because of why I am the above.

So the third option is all I have to play with.

I would agree that finding meaning would look like a contradiction in the same way that a compatibilist looks at free will.

Ultimately, the only thing to do is to accept the meaninglessness and find a way to be happy without demanding meaning.

As Albert Camus said: "one must imagine Sisyphus happy."

Stuffed if I know how though. I am still in the exsistential dread phase.

M.

Hello, haven't read the book but is on my reading list as well. I'm a multiversalist, nondualist, hard determinist, so quite similar.
(I think the two big Western dualistic philosophies, materialism and idealism, were fully refuted by science.)

1. Suicide - nah. First some become suicidal, however, meaninglessness goes both ways: no reason to live is no reason to die. Why kill yourself when you can also do anything you can do. It's all the same, there is no logical reason for suicide. And I think the existential dread / emotional horrors mostly evaporate in time.

2. Philosophical suicide - yeah I'm not the type to do that either.

3. So acceptance it is, and then finding a more-or-less optimal approach, attitude towards existence. Yes, find a way without demanding meaning. give up the need, the desire, the expectation for meaning.

But even so, there seem to be people who are aware of all this and still experience some things as meaningful - if they choose to. I have no idea how they do it, but it's a skill I'd like to learn.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:40 pm

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:49 am Meaning might be found in proving much of societies negative suggestion wrong, in opening your door to the homeless, in the realization that passion is at odds with genuine love, in advising others, etc. Explain what you mean/experience in terms of these areas all being self-refuting? Remember though, should your explanation not be at least reasonably straight forward there is a distinct possibility that your concern may not exist, that you are simply just not thinking healthily/straight. Diet and exercise should always be put well ahead of any and all searching questions.

Not sure I can answer your question, my problem is a general one.

Meaning isn't really found, it's assigned. We assign meaning to things, to the world, but first this happens automatically, which creates the illusion of meaning being intrinsic to things. So it seems like we can search for and find meaning.

Once we see through this illusion however and realize that life is inherently meaningless, how do we make things meaningful anyway? Most people seem to have no problem with this but I always get a contradiction.

If your supposed problem is all embracing in order to prove to yourself of its existence you surely must be able to work it through with each and every example. Logic takes us here. I do n`t follow the significance in braking down how the brain functions with regards meaning, but I agree, of course we do n`t actually find it/discover it, for it is invisible. There has to be good reason for dotting every "i" and crossing every "t" but I cannot find one here? Sure, helping people has to mean something to somebody before it has meaning to them, but not before it has meaning, because those that are being aided likely shall still have healthy minds/minds that function normally, and they will appreciate this help. How your mind operates around that which you do is less important than how you are received at the other end - It matters not whether you perceive that your reducing of human suffering has meaning only that you continue to reduce this suffering. Do n`t try and hide lazy thinking behind philosophy. Are your neurotransmitter levels normal? It is possible to argue your whole existence away like this, but I`d challenge that done by a truly healthy mind. Just because words, and because language is potentially clever, do n`t permit it to rule your mind.

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:44 pm If your supposed problem is all embracing in order to prove to yourself of its existence you surely must be able to work it through with each and every example. Logic takes us here. I do n`t follow the significance in braking down how the brain functions with regards meaning, but I agree, of course we do n`t actually find it/discover it, for it is invisible. There has to be good reason for dotting every "i" and crossing every "t" but I cannot find one here? Sure, helping people has to mean something to somebody before it has meaning to them, but not before it has meaning, because those that are being aided likely shall still have healthy minds/minds that function normally, and they will appreciate this help. How your mind operates around that which you do is less important than how you are received at the other end - It matters not whether you perceive that your reducing of human suffering has meaning only that you continue to reduce this suffering. Do n`t try and hide lazy thinking behind philosophy. Are your neurotransmitter levels normal? It is possible to argue your whole existence away like this, but I`d challenge that done by a truly healthy mind. Just because words, and because language is potentially clever, do n`t permit it to rule your mind.

I mean, my problem is general because it is general.

Proving much of societies negative suggestions wrong is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but it's usually very enjoyable and useful).

Opening your door to the homeless is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but it's usually a morally etc. quite right thing to do).

The realization that passion is at odds with genuine love is meaningless because everything is meaningless (plus I disagree with this one, you can sometimes mix the two).

Advising others is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but it's usually a quite right and enjoyable thing to do).

Reducing of human suffering is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but reducing of human suffering is perhaps more "important", more right than anything else).

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:28 pm The way you talk about value, valuable things, confuses me a little though, those are also made up so I can't ever completely immerse myself in "value".

Yes, value is made up too. I think it's ALL made up... but that doesn't stop me from having a good time with it. I can remember when I was a kid, and I would be introduced to a totally new environment. There didn't need to be meaning... and I didn't need stories -- rather, it was simply thrilling to explore and experiment and create. Life was a wonderland. I think it still is. As adults, we can turn it into all sorts of other things that suit us in one way or another... and convince ourselves very thoroughly of that. Then, depending on how much our identity is woven into (and dependent upon) that over time, we may or may not be able to ever see anything but that.

And that's OKAY! Although, if someone comes on this forum insisting that their creations are some kind of ultimate truth, they are likely to hear much to the contrary. And that's OKAY too! In fact it's perfect.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:28 pm Given the choice, I'd rather choose a genuinely meaningful life

So that's your frustration... you want something that you don't think exists... yes? So you can continue wrestling with that if you want. But perhaps consider this: Believing in meaning does not bring happiness. Look at all the people in the world who assign meaning to things, and look at how they struggle AND FIGHT over meaning! Happiness exists regardless of meaning.

I don't know if you or someone else has already said this, but could it be that for you it's not so much about "meaning", but rather about "direction"? If you're having fun with your direction, that is enough to provide a sense of meaning. There's something about your "quest/struggle" for meaning that I think might be masking something else? Maybe it's an "excuse" for something? Such as, if there's no meaning in life, you can't be responsible for your creations or the lack of them? Does that make sense? Most people struggle with such things.

Yet, might it all be PERFECT exactly because none of it ultimately matters?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:26 pm Yes, value is made up too. I think it's ALL made up... but that doesn't stop me from having a good time with it.

Oh, okay, same here. Although I know that all is made up including myself, I can buy into anything and live that way. Except for meaning for some reason. And everything is so empty this way.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:26 pm So that's your frustration... you want something that you don't think exists... yes?

I don't think so. I worded it badly. It would make no sense to want something that doesn't exist. I just meant that when I still experienced life as genuinely meaningful, things were really better in some ways. So if we were given a cosmic choice what reality should be like, I would choose one that really has genuine meaning. Of course there is no such cosmic choice.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:26 pm So you can continue wrestling with that if you want. But perhaps consider this: Believing in meaning does not bring happiness. Look at all the people in the world who assign meaning to things, and look at how they struggle AND FIGHT over meaning! Happiness exists regardless of meaning.

Well I have to very seriously disagree with this one, people who live under the illusion of genuine meaningfullness are way happier on average. Yes they also believe different things which clash, but if they would believe the same thing, those who lack meaning would be unhappier.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:26 pm I don't know if you or someone else has already said this, but could it be that for you it's not so much about "meaning", but rather about "direction"? If you're having fun with your direction, that is enough to provide a sense of meaning. There's something about your "quest/struggle" for meaning that I think might be masking something else? Maybe it's an "excuse" for something? Such as, if there's no meaning in life, you can't be responsible for your creations or the lack of them? Does that make sense? Most people struggle with such things.

As for direction, I struggle with direction a lot. My direction came, above all things, from meaning, but there is no meaning so there is no direction for me. I can't really make up meaning so I can't really make up a direction either.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:26 pm Yet, might it all be PERFECT exactly because none of it ultimately matters?

Why would that make anything perfect?

Here is my best guess for what could be the problem: maybe I'm caught in a seemingly infinite cognitive loop.

Roughly speaking, I can make up anything and make myself believe in it, and that requires one "step".
For example I pretend that I really exist as a seperate self, I buy into this illusion for everyday purposes. I only have to do this once, it works pretty well.

This doesn't seem to work for meaning though. Maybe because if I do the first step, I get the error message in my head: "yeah well nice try but that does not compute, making up meaning is also meaningless".

Maybe I should keep going, second step: let's pretend that making up meaning is meaningful. Then comes the second error message saying that that too was a nice try, but meaningless.

And so on, repeat this ad infinitum until something "clicks" in my head maybe and I start to see things as meaningful?

But I really can't tell if this is the problem or not.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:28 pm Here is my best guess for what could be the problem: maybe I'm caught in a seemingly infinite cognitive loop.

Roughly speaking, I can make up anything and make myself believe in it, and that requires one "step".
For example I pretend that I really exist as a seperate self, I buy into this illusion for everyday purposes. I only have to do this once, it works pretty well.

This doesn't seem to work for meaning though. Maybe because if I do the first step, I get the error message in my head: "yeah well nice try but that does not compute, making up meaning is also meaningless".

Maybe I should keep going, second step: let's pretend that making up meaning is meaningful. Then comes the second error message saying that that too was a nice try, but meaningless.

And so on, repeat this ad infinitum until something "clicks" in my head maybe and I start to see things as meaningful?

But I really can't tell if this is the problem or not.

or you could accept any random "T"ruth as meaningful...

all it takes is faith

-Imp

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:55 pm people who live under the illusion of genuine meaningfullness are way happier on average.../...those who lack meaning would be unhappier.

Okay, I can see that viewpoint too. I just don't think that anything has to be a certain way for happiness. You can be happy or unhappy regardless of meaning. That's the point I was trying to make. If you wish you could go into some sort of illusion... well, I wish you peace in the meantime, and at some point you probably will because we can't seem to help ourselves even when we "know" better. And that's just fine.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:55 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:26 pm Yet, might it all be PERFECT exactly because none of it ultimately matters?

Why would that make anything perfect?

Because thinking that things matter is based on human judgements, and it is those judgements that can label life and everything in it as imperfect. However, if we recognize that none of it ultimately matters... and that it's just an amazing playground of creation and exploration... then it's perfect as that. Do you see what I mean?

Hi Atla,

[To those whose lives have been touched by the tragedy of suicide, you may wish to skip this post and any further of mine in this thread just in case.]

Did I write what I wrote? My English teacher will be spinning in her grave. It was a choice between proof-reading my post or throwing a pizza in the oven and making a cup of tea. Terrible, I know, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has classified my pizza as Group 1: The agent (mixture) is carcinogenic to humans. Looks like I may be taking option 1 anyway.

Atla wrote:Hello, haven't read the book but is on my reading list as well. I'm a multiversalist, nondualist, hard determinist, so quite similar.

I didn't take Idealism as a dualistic philosophy, but then I am not a philosopher. (Any discipline that is so ill-disciplined that it has 27 different and self contradictory meanings attached to one word deserves to be mired in the swamp of its own equivocation. )
I am a nothingist, as long as philosophy hasn't used that word for something.

Atla wrote:(I think the two big Western dualistic philosophies, materialism and idealism, were fully refuted by science.)

That deserves a whole thread of its own. I'm not sure that sort of thing is in the gift of science though.

Atla wrote:1. Suicide - nah. First some become suicidal, however, meaninglessness goes both ways: no reason to live is no reason to die. Why kill yourself when you can also do anything you can do. It's all the same, there is no logical reason for suicide.

I think there are many logical reasons for suicide, context is everything. As far as I can see in the field of ethics and morality you can make any (in)action as (un/im)ethical/moral as you desire by adjusting the context to suit your predilection for mischief.

I simply do not believe it is possible to commit suicide, if by that it is taken to mean 'to extinguish the continuity of ones consciousness'. Attempting suicide doesn't stop you having to roll that stone up the hill; it probably just makes it harder.

Atla wrote:And I think the existential dread / emotional horrors mostly evaporate in time.

I think the literature is against this. It would appear that ones early life experiences have a big influence on whether an individual is resilient to life's inevitable knocks. A whole industry of self-help books is built on this.
For some this is a festering sore that leads to option 1, the only question is how long it takes.

Interestingly there is a promising therapy called ACT which is 'acceptance and commitment therapy' or something like that.

Atla wrote:3. So acceptance it is, and then finding a more-or-less optimal approach, attitude towards existence. Yes, find a way without demanding meaning. give up the need, the desire, the expectation for meaning.

But even so, there seem to be people who are aware of all this and still experience some things as meaningful - if they choose to. I have no idea how they do it, but it's a skill I'd like to learn.

In the first part you accept the need for acceptance and then in the latter you express a desire to learn how to find meaning in the meaningless. That would seem to me to nub of the problem. It comes across to me that you believe that your fulfilment comes from the meaning of your actions, which, of course, don't have any. I would see your desire as a craving for option 2 while your head demands option 3.

If that is the case then I too have this conflict. Some days I would like to find some 'church' that gave all the social and psychological benefits I crave without the need to accept the glaring hypocrisy and downright deceit of some other organizations.

The curse is seeing the meaninglessness, once you see that hair there is no turning back unless you can forget you saw it or exercise denial intensely enough that you convince yourself that that it isn't there.

I am reasonably sure that acceptance is a skill and not simply lacking knowledge of some kind. It may be something as simple as finding out all the things that holds one into ones current rut and doing the opposite. Except, of course, that is the hardest thing one can possibly try to do.

But then, no one said rolling a rock up a hill was going to be easy.

Perhaps, after this post, I could harness my English teacher up to a winch and pull that rock up the hill.

M.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:19 pm

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:44 pm If your supposed problem is all embracing in order to prove to yourself of its existence you surely must be able to work it through with each and every example. Logic takes us here. I do n`t follow the significance in braking down how the brain functions with regards meaning, but I agree, of course we do n`t actually find it/discover it, for it is invisible. There has to be good reason for dotting every "i" and crossing every "t" but I cannot find one here? Sure, helping people has to mean something to somebody before it has meaning to them, but not before it has meaning, because those that are being aided likely shall still have healthy minds/minds that function normally, and they will appreciate this help. How your mind operates around that which you do is less important than how you are received at the other end - It matters not whether you perceive that your reducing of human suffering has meaning only that you continue to reduce this suffering. Do n`t try and hide lazy thinking behind philosophy. Are your neurotransmitter levels normal? It is possible to argue your whole existence away like this, but I`d challenge that done by a truly healthy mind. Just because words, and because language is potentially clever, do n`t permit it to rule your mind.

I mean, my problem is general because it is general.

Proving much of societies negative suggestions wrong is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but it's usually very enjoyable and useful).

Opening your door to the homeless is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but it's usually a morally etc. quite right thing to do).

The realization that passion is at odds with genuine love is meaningless because everything is meaningless (plus I disagree with this one, you can sometimes mix the two).

Advising others is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but it's usually a quite right and enjoyable thing to do).

Reducing of human suffering is meaningless because everything is meaningless (but reducing of human suffering is perhaps more "important", more right than anything else).

So nothing exists because nothing exists, whatever. I just think, rightly or wrongly so, so what? How does this wealth of positive insight/negative insight (it must be one of these, surely) better your world? I do n`t even have the first clue as to what you think you are talking about, never mind what is supposed to be on your mind/supposed to be absent from your mind, whatever, and it is totally impossible for me to even care. You are giving me zero dialogue to work with. According to you then nothing means anything to anyone because there is only nothing, and nothing does n`t exist. You are permitting mere language to create worlds for you.

Metazoan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:54 pm In the first part you accept the need for acceptance and then in the latter you express a desire to learn how to find meaning in the meaningless. That would seem to me to nub of the problem. It comes across to me that you believe that your fulfilment comes from the meaning of your actions, which, of course, don't have any. I would see your desire as a craving for option 2 while your head demands option 3.

If that is the case then I too have this conflict. Some days I would like to find some 'church' that gave all the social and psychological benefits I crave without the need to accept the glaring hypocrisy and downright deceit of some other organizations.

The curse is seeing the meaninglessness, once you see that hair there is no turning back unless you can forget you saw it or exercise denial intensely enough that you convince yourself that that it isn't there.

I am reasonably sure that acceptance is a skill and not simply lacking knowledge of some kind. It may be something as simple as finding out all the things that holds one into ones current rut and doing the opposite. Except, of course, that is the hardest thing one can possibly try to do.

But then, no one said rolling a rock up a hill was going to be easy.

I exercise a sort of denial, but in a rather unusual way. I view the world from two different perspectives all the time. I arrived at this method to get rid of most of the existential dread / emotional horrors. It doesn't fully work for meaning yet, but I think it will. Works well enough for everything else. It is a cognitive split so this kind of denial requires no intensity, effort.

One perspective is the normal everyday experience, with all its illusions taken for granted. I spend most of my life here. I try to view and feel and experience things as "normally" as possible here. Here I make myself believe that things matter, things are meaningful, we exist, values exist, morals exist, things are separate etc.

The other perspective is my abstract "objective" understanding of reality where I see things as I think they actually "are". Of course I am aware that everything in the everyday experience is illusory, not quite the way it seems, and many things don't exist at all, are made up. But it no longer causes me much existential dread because most of these horrors are processed on a pury abstract level and I deliberately no longer try to "feel" any of that.

I had to make this "split" in cognition, because trying to incorporate the underlying horrible truths into my everyday life sent me towards the 1. option too. That just didn't work. Now however I feel fairly good. It's impossible to unsee that hair but maybe you can try such a workaround too?

What I mean in this topic is that, of course in my "objective" abstract worldview, I fully realize that everything is meaningless. But in my everyday view, the one through which I live most of my life, I can just forget about that and try to "make up my own meaning". What I don't understand is, if I can make myself experience any other bullshit in my everyday mode, why can't I do it with a sense of meaning.

Metazoan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:54 pm I didn't take Idealism as a dualistic philosophy, but then I am not a philosopher. (Any discipline that is so ill-disciplined that it has 27 different and self contradictory meanings attached to one word deserves to be mired in the swamp of its own equivocation. )
I am a nothingist, as long as philosophy hasn't used that word for something.

Yeah as far as I know, Western philosophers ususally don't see materialism and idealism as dualistic, which imho is a final symptom of 2500 years of Western insanity.

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:16 pm So nothing exists because nothing exists, whatever. I just think, rightly or wrongly so, so what? How does this wealth of positive insight/negative insight (it must be one of these, surely) better your world? I do n`t even have the first clue as to what you think you are talking about, never mind what is supposed to be on your mind/supposed to be absent from your mind, whatever, and it is totally impossible for me to even care. You are giving me zero dialogue to work with. According to you then nothing means anything to anyone because there is only nothing, and nothing does n`t exist. You are permitting mere language to create worlds for you.

If something is not meaningful, how does that thing also cease to exist?

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:40 am After realizing that life is inherently meaningless, most people resolve the problem by finding meaning in their own lives

they do?

didn't know this. thanks for the education!

.............

as for me, my life has no meaning (guess i need all those folks your are talking about to come over here and talk to me and tell me how my life has meaning).

I'm glad to be alive (here today gone tomorrow), though my life has no meaning..............