Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:25 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:17 pm Or both.

Well I've never been able to see the point of poetry and I did leave school at 15 so yes, guilty on both counts.

How did you manage to leave school so early?

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:36 pm I think you would get yourself into a problem is you say "atheism is believing that god does not exist" as that implies belief. Whilst that might describe some atheists it is rather a question begging position- what do you mean by god in the first place.

I wasn't trying to say that atheism was a 'belief that there is no god', but that even someone who specifically 'believes there is no god' still 'does not believe there is a god', and is therefore still an atheist.

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:43 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:38 pm

ken wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:57 am I choose whether to believe any thing or not. I choose neither to believe or disbelieve any thing, instead I look at things. When I look at belief I notice that belief, itself, tries to change, distort, fog, muddy, and/or completely block the actual truth from being seen.

What is the exact mechanism of 'choosing to believe'? How can I read something, and decide whether or not I'd like to believe it? What muscles do I have to contract in my head, or what bodily function do I have to perform in order to 'choose' to believe in something?

It's about how the idea appeals to you and your preexisting set of beliefs.
Once you have one false belief it tends to mean that you collect others. So one absurd religious story so believed tends to attract others until you end up with an accretion of garbage.

Well yeah, but how does that determine if belief is something we 'choose'? I'm not convinced that we do choose to believe anything, even the clearly false and irrational things.

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:36 pm I think you would get yourself into a problem is you say "atheism is believing that god does not exist" as that implies belief. Whilst that might describe some atheists it is rather a question begging position- what do you mean by god in the first place.

I wasn't trying to say that atheism was a 'belief that there is no god', but that even someone who specifically 'believes there is no god' still 'does not believe there is a god', and is therefore still an atheist.

Are you not aware of the differences here?

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:43 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:38 pm
What is the exact mechanism of 'choosing to believe'? How can I read something, and decide whether or not I'd like to believe it? What muscles do I have to contract in my head, or what bodily function do I have to perform in order to 'choose' to believe in something?

It's about how the idea appeals to you and your preexisting set of beliefs.
Once you have one false belief it tends to mean that you collect others. So one absurd religious story so believed tends to attract others until you end up with an accretion of garbage.

Well yeah, but how does that determine if belief is something we 'choose'? I'm not convinced that we do choose to believe anything, even the clearly false and irrational things.

Is this a point against free will?

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:02 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:36 pm I think you would get yourself into a problem is you say "atheism is believing that god does not exist" as that implies belief. Whilst that might describe some atheists it is rather a question begging position- what do you mean by god in the first place.

I wasn't trying to say that atheism was a 'belief that there is no god', but that even someone who specifically 'believes there is no god' still 'does not believe there is a god', and is therefore still an atheist.

Are you not aware of the differences here?

I literally just implied there was a difference? The specific reason I bring it up in the OP is to show how there is a dichotomy between atheism and theism. You're either an atheist or a theist, because even if a more staunt atheist said something like "I know there is no God', he still does not believe there is a god. Likewise, agnostics saying they're not sure still fall into this category of not having a belief, and hence are still atheists. It's not to say there isn't variation within theism and atheism, but someone always has to fall into one of these 2 groups.

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:03 am Is this a point against free will?

I'm not intending it to be. But no, I don't think it is. We can still choose certain actions that indirectly influence our belief, but we can't directly change our beliefs by flipping some sort of switch on our head.

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:38 pm

ken wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:57 am I choose whether to believe any thing or not. I choose neither to believe or disbelieve any thing, instead I look at things. When I look at belief I notice that belief, itself, tries to change, distort, fog, muddy, and/or completely block the actual truth from being seen.

What is the exact mechanism of 'choosing to believe'?

In one word, CHOICE. From the open Mind there is choice.

Is it through your ability to choose that you choose to do any thing? The open Mind is the exact mechanism that allows you to choose.

The number of choices you have to choose from may be limited however, but the freedom to choose is NOT limited.

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:38 pmHow can I read something, and decide whether or not I'd like to believe it?

You appear to be under the distorted belief that you HAVE TO believe some thing. Choose to NOT have this belief, then you will KNOW the mechanism of choice.

I suggest choose to NOT believe or disbelieve any thing and see if this changes your view of things.

Get rid of the belief that you HAVE TO believe, then you will understand that you do NOT have to decide whether or not you would like to believe some thing.

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:38 pmWhat muscles do I have to contract in my head, or what bodily function do I have to perform in order to 'choose' to believe in something?

No muscles and no bodily function is needed to choose to believe or NOT. I choose NOT before I choose to believe some thing.

However, what you choose to believe comes from the brain. So, if you choose to believe some thing, then a functioning brain is needed.

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:19 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:02 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 pm
I wasn't trying to say that atheism was a 'belief that there is no god', but that even someone who specifically 'believes there is no god' still 'does not believe there is a god', and is therefore still an atheist.

Are you not aware of the differences here?

I literally just implied there was a difference?

Why are you making a statement with question mark? Or are you asking a question with a statement?

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:20 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:03 am Is this a point against free will?

I'm not intending it to be. But no, I don't think it is. We can still choose certain actions that indirectly influence our belief, but we can't directly change our beliefs by flipping some sort of switch on our head.

Yes you can. People chose to believe all the time. belief is about what appeals. I see people decide whether or not they think something they have seen, say on TV, is true or false.

Do you believe I am a man or a woman?

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 pm How did you manage to leave school so early?

You were allowed to leave at 15 in those days, and no one tried to persuade me to stay, so I went.

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:06 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 pm How did you manage to leave school so early?

You were allowed to leave at 15 in those days, and no one tried to persuade me to stay, so I went.

You must be 60+.
You look so young in your mortar board.

You have missed out. You left school at the "take what you are taught" stage, and before the "the teacher can be wrong" and "Shit is more complicated that you think" stages had begun.

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:48 pm You must be 60+.

60+2½ to be precise.

You look so young in your mortar board.

That's an old photo.

You have missed out. You left school at the "take what you are taught" stage, and before the "the teacher can be wrong" and "Shit is more complicated that you think" stages had begun.

I think of it more as the "go away and stop wasting our time" stage.

ken wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:24 amIn one word, CHOICE. From the open Mind there is choice.

How do I activate the option of 'choice' within this open mind, in the same way as, say, flexing my fingers?

You appear to be under the distorted belief that you HAVE TO believe some thing. Choose to NOT have this belief, then you will KNOW the mechanism of choice.

In other words, if I 'know the mechanism of choice I will know the mechanism of choice'? Well that's great and all, but I'm trying to find out how there is one, because intuitively speaking, I don't feel I do choose to believe or disbelieve something

However, what you choose to believe comes from the brain. So, if you choose to believe some thing, then a functioning brain is needed.

So, why is it that you think someone who's being tortured can't just choose to believe pain simply doesn't exist? I know I've asked you this question before, I'd just you like to elaborate again.

Hobbes' Choice wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:39 am Why are you making a statement with question mark? Or are you asking a question with a statement?

I was just being slightly flippant with you, because I thought it was pretty obvious I knew the difference between an atheist who just does not belief, and an atheist who specifically believes there is no god.