Philosophy Now Forum

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:56 am
That's just a hot mess of complete nonsense.

Develop a proper theory.

If you consider it 'a hot mess of complete nonsense', you could show me your own proper theory.

Are you serious?

There is no correlation between population size and authoritarian government. I don't need a big theory to describe two unrelated things not being related to each other.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:46 am Are you serious?

There is no correlation between population size and authoritarian government. I don't need a big theory to describe two unrelated things not being related to each other.

Take the example of ancient Greece and ancient eygpt, in ancient Greece, it was direct democracy because it is possible to assemble 10 hundred people across the whole city-state to the city center to discuss things and make a vote then go home to cook dinner in a single day; it is impossible in ancient eygpt to organize 10 thousand people from all Eygpt into the city center of Cairo to cast a vote and then go home to cook dinner (the voting thing will become a hunger strike).

Another example:
In city-state of Sparta, the system is a direct dictatorship, Because it is possible for the ruler of Sparta to know and dictate what his citizens must do in a city with less than 10 hundred people.

In ancient eygpt, the Pharaoh has no way to know and dictate what his citizens must do because eygpt is much bigger with much more population than Sparta, therefore ancient eygpt was an authoritarian state.

Population size does make a major difference, whether you accept it or not.

Didn't Athenians not allow women and the vast majority of the people living in Athens to participate in their democracy?

Science Fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:20 am Didn't Athenians not allow women and the vast majority of the people living in Athens to participate in their democracy?

But it is still direct democracy for free men in Athen.

If in America those 'illegal immigrants' were not allowed to vote can I just say ' since illegal immigrants have no voting rights therefore America is not a democracy'?

There is a difference between being an illegal immigrant in the USA today, and a person, like a female, who was excluded from Athenian democracy. One is not a member of the body politic, but could be, while, in the other situation, half the population is excluded from participating in political decisions based on sexism.

Just pointing out that even in Athens, there was a hierarchy of social dominance that was not lifted by any democracy.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:22 am Our wall will not hold the Mongols back...

-Imp

Back from what? entering or escaping?

Science Fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:31 am There is a difference between being an illegal immigrant in the USA today, and a person, like a female, who was excluded from Athenian democracy. One is not a member of the body politic, but could be, while, in the other situation, half the population is excluded from participating in political decisions based on sexism.

Just pointing out that even in Athens, there was a hierarchy of social dominance that was not lifted by any democracy.

Of course illegal immigrants and women in Athen are two totally different people, I do not say they are the same people, I 'm just use them to make a case that you could not say Athen is not a democracy by saying women can not vote.

I can most definitely state that Athens was not a democracy because it did not allow women to vote. Why not?

Science Fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:44 am I can most definitely state that Athens was not a democracy because it did not allow women to vote. Why not?

Are you saying America is not a democracy because America asks those so-called 'illegal immigrants' to obey all their duties yet denys their right to vote ? Why???

In the ancient world, women all around the world had no right to be equal to men, this was the case until the women's right movement in the 1900s.

Ancient Athen was a direct democracy in the sense that all the important dicisions were decided by the free and fair voting of all free male adults, it is the birth of democracy even though it was still in its infancy in the ancient world.

You already agreed with me that there was a distinction between illegal immigrants in the USA, and women in Athens. So, what do you do? Now, contradict yourself and claim the two situations are the same?

The two situations are not the same, and no Athens was not a democracy, as It excluded most of its domestic population from having the right to vote. That's certainly not a society that was not based on a hierarchy, as you've been claiming.

Please explain how it was a democracy simply because people at the time were discriminating against women? Didn't Egypt have a queen for a ruler?

But, how is it that merely because others discriminate against women that we can accept the exclusion of women from having the right to vote as acceptable for a democracy? There is no logical reason for doing so. Rather, there is a much better argument to be made that no real democracy existed that excluded women from the list of eligible voters.

thedoc wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:38 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:22 am Our wall will not hold the Mongols back...

-Imp

Back from what? entering or escaping?

the utopia of east germany (which certain leftists in this country wish to emulate) will not be experienced here...

-Imp

Impenitent wrote:
the utopia of east germany (which certain leftists in this country wish to emulate) will not be experienced here...

-Imp

True as in your case you're giving away your surveillance for free, in fact you're even paying for it.

Above us only sky wrote: Take the example of ancient Greece and ancient eygpt, in ancient Greece, it was direct democracy because it is possible to assemble 10 hundred people across the whole city-state to the city center to discuss things and make a vote then go home to cook dinner in a single day; it is impossible in ancient eygpt to organize 10 thousand people from all Eygpt into the city center of Cairo to cast a vote and then go home to cook dinner (the voting thing will become a hunger strike).

Another example:
In city-state of Sparta, the system is a direct dictatorship, Because it is possible for the ruler of Sparta to know and dictate what his citizens must do in a city with less than 10 hundred people.

In ancient eygpt, the Pharaoh has no way to know and dictate what his citizens must do because eygpt is much bigger with much more population than Sparta, therefore ancient eygpt was an authoritarian state.

Population size does make a major difference, whether you accept it or not.

If this is the case aren't you ignoring the current technological advances that would make it easily possible for billions to be involved in a direct democracy and they can be cooking their dinner whilst they do it.