[Questioning Everything]

[Lacewing]

When you incorrectly analyze me like this, Ken, I don’t want to spend my time trying to show/convince you otherwise.

You do not have to spend any more time, to show me, other than the time it takes to write, "You are wrong".

I’m sure you appreciate the effort of someone to bring clarity... rather than just giving you those words alone. A person may still wish, however, that they didn’t have to devote energy to such phantoms created by others.

Throughout our discussions I have noticed that you have a strong belief that coming together and finding a unified agreement on one way that could show us all and lead us all to an ultimate answer/truth is not possible. Is this correct?

It’s not that I don’t think it’s possible... I just don’t see the point. I see value and strength and entertainment and perfection in the seemingly infinite and changeable expansion and exploration of vast potential... never settling on one way. It would be like sitting at a banquet table, but everybody decides to only eat from one choice that offers the most nutrients. People may have different requirements and tastes, even if they are capable of being agreeable with the group.

this coming to agreement in a truly unified way, for the better of all of us, might just be the next evolving step and way for human beings.

Maybe. But what is better than the perfection of what is? An inability to see that perfection does not mean it doesn’t exist. Why WOULDN’T it be perfect? Are humans that powerful to mess up a much greater perfection... or are they playing their perfect role within it? Is the universe that dysfunctional and disconnected that it would spin off totally nonsensical creations that need to be fixed? Are the things that we think need to be fixed, ONLY due to our smaller and personal levels of perception/understanding... or do they extend beyond ourselves to all of humankind?

Just maybe after learning how to come together as One, and work together as One, instead of only working individually or selectively, this might only be just the beginning of a completely new way of looking at and seeing things, more like how a truly infinite creative being would see things.

And what would that truly infinite creative being then do with a material and limited world like ours? What would be the point of such a world when all thinking is visibly as One? Which by the way, I think we already are. I think we ARE already one... playing out infinite possibilities. If our awareness CAME BACK to that, the show stops... because the show needs characters and variety.

Nothing is ultimately keeping any individual awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one’s experience. There is a wide range of “vision” throughout people on this planet. Increased vision does not rely on making agreements about what is right. Many would say, the only thing wrong is to think it’s all wrong.

I’m thinking of the inner and outer universe as having many layers of varying densities. To be in the denser levels is to feel more trapped, and to be less capable of seeing through obstacles and human fabrications. When one sees through those, there is naturally increased understanding and freer movement -– no agreement about what is good or necessary is required. There is not even a “goal”... there is just magnificent ongoing creation and expansion, within which limitless experiences are possible.

The only thing to really “change” is our perspective within the ocean of varying densities and possibilities. More movement and visibility is possible at less density. The ocean doesn’t need to change; the ocean is not wrong.

These are my own impressions. This is why your idea of everyone agreeing to create a better world makes no sense to me. It makes more sense to shift perspective out of the view that such a thing is necessary.

With love,

Lacewing

[Lacewing]

You clearly lack brain functionality and can't' comprehend very very basic input of reality, go else where and pour out your prolific brain diarrhea!

Sounds like you're describing yourself, Hex... as once again, all you can do is blurt out that someone is speaking nonsense, yet you have nothing intelligent (or alternative) to say, yourself. As a result, you appear to be a very childish troll and/or an idiot. If this is not true, why don't you explain your own perspective and demonstrate that you have intelligence, and aren't just here to bash people like a big jerk off?

Sounds like you're describing yourself, Lacewing... as once again, all you can do is blurt out that someone is speaking nonsense, yet you have nothing intelligent (or alternative) to say, yourself. As a result, you appear to be a very childish troll and/or an idiot. If this is not true, why don't you explain your own perspective and demonstrate that you have intelligence, and aren't just here to bash people like a big jerk off?

Fuck off TSBU... I don't think your snipey little retorts and stupid cartoons are clever. If you can't see that I do much more than blurt out when someone is speaking nonsense, you're not paying attention.

[TSBU]

hahahahaXD

[Dalek Prime]

What's wrong with making things up? If it gets me through another day, it's exactly what I'm going to do. Ultimate reality is (probably) highly overrated. I was just saying yesterday how I had a great imagination as a kid, then became disillusioned, as we all do. But all I gained was an understanding of how mundane life normally is.

Related to this, I told a friend about a really nice Christian woman I knew, whom I promised to read a book of hers, on condition she heard me out on the subject as well. Then I thought about it, and realised I did not want to shake her faith, as it has served her well, and so I released her from the agreement. Why would I want to take something of value from her?

Metaphorically, you can spend your life picking at scabs, or you can just get past the itch, and allow them to heal.

[ken]

When you incorrectly analyze me like this, Ken, I don’t want to spend my time trying to show/convince you otherwise.

You do not have to spend any more time, to show me, other than the time it takes to write, "You are wrong".

I’m sure you appreciate the effort of someone to bring clarity... rather than just giving you those words alone. A person may still wish, however, that they didn’t have to devote energy to such phantoms created by others.

If I am analyzing something other than the thoughts and feelings within a human body, for example if I said, "The sky is not blue", then yes i certainly appreciate the effort of someone to bring clarity to why I am wrong. I have said on occasions that if I am perceived to be wrong, then I just do not want to be told "Your are wrong", I want to be where exactly in my views are wrong and more importantly exactly WHY I am wrong. However, if I am analyzing a person, that is, the thoughts and feelings within a human body, then all I need to be told is "You are wrong". I have no other means of knowing what the actual truth is, so the only thing I can do is accept what they say. To Me, there is a huge difference here between analyzing a person, and analyzing any other thing.

Throughout our discussions I have noticed that you have a strong belief that coming together and finding a unified agreement on one way that could show us all and lead us all to an ultimate answer/truth is not possible. Is this correct?

It’s not that I don’t think it’s possible... I just don’t see the point. I see value and strength and entertainment and perfection in the seemingly infinite and changeable expansion and exploration of vast potential... never settling on one way.

As I have already suggested the 'one way' is NOT unchangeable and may in fact be changed within a year or a month or two. Throughout your whole life you have had to settle on doing things 'one way', that is until you find a better or more successful way, right? If so, then you settle on that way, for a time being, also, am I right?

It would be like sitting at a banquet table, but everybody decides to only eat from one choice that offers the most nutrients. People may have different requirements and tastes, even if they are capable of being agreeable with the group.

So we agree that we can be agreeable? (Remembering what we can do is different form what we want to do).

Now, IF, and only, IF everyone decides on the same way to eat, because that is the best for all of them, then so be it. That is what just happened or 'what is'. I do not recall ever saying anything other than that, and that is, ONLY what everyone agrees with IS the right, or more appropriate, or better, WAY. And, If, and only, If everyone is in agreement on "settling" on that one agreed upon and accepted way, for however short or long a time that is, then that is for the time being the one and only way that everyone chooses to go on. If there is NO one disagreeing and not accepting, then it is by all means the one and only chosen way.

Also, adults sitting at a banquet table and choosing what to eat is a bit different from what I have been talking about regarding a way for the whole of human kind to raise children for however long more that is the best for ALL those children, and thus adults as well.

this coming to agreement in a truly unified way, for the better of all of us, might just be the next evolving step and way for human beings.

Maybe. But what is better than the perfection of what is?

To Me, that is fine if 'what is' is something that human beings do not have much say over, like the weather. But when 'what is' comes down to the way human beings treat or mistreat each other, then one of the better attempts to "justify" ones own wrong behaviors to them self, is to tell them self 'that is what is', or 'that is the way it is meant to be', or any other of the countless ways human beings try to justify their wrong behaviors, when they are mistreating other human beings. A classic attempt of trying to justify their own wrong behavior when an adult is hitting a child is, "I was hit as a child and it never did me any harm". Their belief that 'it' [the hitting of them] never did them any harm blinds them to the actual fact of what they are doing, that is, using violence or extreme behavior on a child to coerce or get them to behave in a certain WAY.

An inability to see that perfection does not mean it doesn’t exist.

How do we explain to a child who is being abused that this is just 'what is' and it is perfection? How do we tell them that there is no better way? Even though they themselves know deep down that there must be a better way.

Why WOULDN’T it be perfect?

Because I think perfection is not some thing that we could actually reach. But I do know that there is certainly much better ways we all could be doing in the way we think about and treat each other, which in turn effects the way our children are raised, who will in turn obviously be raising there children, and so on...

Are humans that powerful to mess up a much greater perfection... or are they playing their perfect role within it?

As the saying goes, "We are doing the best we can", but to Me, that is a cope out for wanting to do better. I agree human beings are doing the best they can, with the knowledge they have now, but I know when human beings gain the knowledge, answers, or truths of all the meaningful questions in Life, then they will certainly be able to far, far better than they are now.

I would say No human beings are no where near powerful to mess up a much greater perfection, and in fact human beings are in the perfect position they are right NOW. Always have been and always will be. That greater perfection has allowed human beings to evolve with the free will to choose whatever they want to but they are also equally predestined because of the limited amount of knowledge that they have at any particular time throughout their life. The greatest gift the greater perfection gave human beings, besides the amazing human brain, is the ability to freely choose what they want to do and achieve and to LEARN by their MISTAKES, which up to now has happened in to frequently, but that is another matter.

As with each greater step up the evolutionary ladder, so to speak, have come from just one person who has discovered, or maybe more correctly, stumbled upon more or newer knowledge, which has helped move the generations forward. This was not because of that one sole person but rather because of all the people around them and before them equally. No one person would be in the position that they are in at any given moment if absolutely every other thing in the Universe was not in the exact perfect place that it was in, at any given moment. Let us say, for example, that one who just happened to stumble upon some knowledge, of which they did not know how to express succinctly, nor even properly nor remotely clearly, no matter how many times they tried to express and no matter to how many people they to express it to. Now, this person goes a philosophy forum website just to learn how to express better, and finally achieves this, and then goes away and writes a story, from which a whole generation of human beings learn how to change the way they look at and see things, which in turn turns the whole of society of people around, which in turn them produces and creates are truly non-polluting, peaceful loving and harmonious world for each and every one. Now, this certainly did not happen because any one person was any less or any better than any other person, nor because any one person knew more or less than any other person but solely because that is the way perfection had allowed all things to evolve into that. The infinite creative energy has always been manifesting Itself through shaping and forming absolutely everything to be-come what It wants to BE.

Is the universe that dysfunctional and disconnected that it would spin off totally nonsensical creations that need to be fixed?

No, but just maybe the Universe spun off some evolving (and on a lot of occasions nonsensical) creations, which are always capable of learning how to become better, or more fixed, if only they always remained open to learning that. But sadly these creations just seem to love believing (in) some things, which closes them off to learning and discovering. There is a very sensible reason why beliefs, through the belief system, are so strong and so strongly built into human beings but that is for another discussion later, when more is learned.

Are the things that we think need to be fixed, ONLY due to our smaller and personal levels of perception/understanding... or do they extend beyond ourselves to all of humankind?

To me the ONLY things in Life that need to be "fixed" is us human beings ourselves. We are the ONLY things that can and do do wrong, so we are the only things that NEED to change. To Me, this only applies to the adult human beings also. Children do not ask to come into this world and they also do not have a choice what kind of what they are being brought into and up in. So, they have no choice in what they are exposed to and thus what they experience, therefore they have no choice in what they learn and/or do not learn. However as some stage in a human beings life they have to take full control and take full responsibility for ALL of their behaviors.

Just maybe after learning how to come together as One, and work together as One, instead of only working individually or selectively, this might only be just the beginning of a completely new way of looking at and seeing things, more like how a truly infinite creative being would see things.

And what would that truly infinite creative being then do with a material and limited world like ours?

I am not sure what world you think is "ours"?

The only "world" that I know of is this One and ONLY Universe, which I think will be found is actually infinite, limitless, boundless, and eternal. The Universe is, to Me, also obviously made of the material and the non-material. So, there is nothing at all that a truly infinite creative being could or could not do.

What would be the point of such a world when all thinking is visibly as One?

I really hope I have not projected this idea at all, because that is certainly NOT what I was trying to express at all. To Me, there can not be two human beings thinking the exact same way, that is just about impossible because of the very way thoughts are gained and obtained. So, as long as there are human beings there will always be different thinking, and there will be as many different set of thoughts as there are human beings.

What I have been trying to express was and is NEVER about thinking the same way of having to think the same way. What I have just been trying to express is those actual thoughts that just happen to be the exact same thoughts that ALL human beings share are the ones that can and will unify and unite human beings together as One. The beautiful of Life, Itself, is the variety and abundance of separate and differing things.

Which by the way, I think we already are. I think we ARE already one... playing out infinite possibilities. If our awareness CAME BACK to that, the show stops... because the show needs characters and variety.

The actual thing that truly links and unites us ALL as One IS absolutely truly wonderful and amazing, and when fully conscious or aware of what It actually is will leave people absolutely dumbfounded. But what is just as amazing is the thing that separates and divides us ALL, this awareness will also leave people speechless, for a time being.

The "show" will NEVER stop because like you say "the show needs characters and variety" and because the show ALWAYS, and in all ways, has characters and variety It can not nor will not stop. Never has and never will. There was no end, the is no beginning. The only end is right here, right NOW, which is also just the beginning. The show MUST and WILL go on.

Nothing is ultimately keeping any individual awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one’s experience.

To Me there is. The things that keep any individual's awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one's experience are the very things that keeps individual from seeing, and understanding. Those things are; beliefs, and, assumptions. Human beings can only see, (or understand), things if they are open to them, and, beliefs and assumptions close people off, to learning and discovering.

There is a wide range of “vision” throughout people on this planet. Increased vision does not rely on making agreements about what is right. Many would say, the only thing wrong is to think it’s all wrong.

Just to reinforce I have NEVER said anything about "making agreements". I have only ever mentioned about those things that happen to be in agreement with every one ARE what is right, true, and/or correct. For the simple reason that there is NO one disagreeing. AND, even this agreement should not be believed in to be the ultimate Truth because once some thing is believed, then openness is shut, and then continue learning and discovering is not possible.

I have never heard it said nor mentioned that "It's all wrong" before. It certainly is not that, to Me.

The wide range of "vision", when shared, is what allows a bigger and thus truer picture to be painted. Obviously the vision that is shared and not agreed with is obviously not worth adding to the big picture, but just as obvious is THAT what is shared and agreed with among ALL is the only vision to be added. This commonly shared by ALL would make common sense to ALL and must be added to from a one and only True picture of Life, Its Self.

I’m thinking of the inner and outer universe as having many layers of varying densities.

To Me, there is no inner nor outer universe. There is just the One and only Universe, with the exact same density.

To be in the denser levels is to feel more trapped, and to be less capable of seeing through obstacles and human fabrications. When one sees through those, there is naturally increased understanding and freer movement -– no agreement about what is good or necessary is required. There is not even a “goal”... there is just magnificent ongoing creation and expansion, within which limitless experiences are possible.

Where do you think/imagine the ongoing creation is heading towards?

Could one of those limitless experiences that are possible be that ALL human beings start working towards a 'goal', which is wanted and shared equally by ALL people anyway. This equally shared desired goal coming from the exact same equally infinite creative being, moving us ALL towards the magnificent ongoing creation of living happily and peacefully together forever more within the expanse of our One and only HOME - the Universe?

The only thing to really “change” is our perspective within the ocean of varying densities and possibilities. More movement and visibility is possible at less density. The ocean doesn’t need to change; the ocean is not wrong.

As I said previously nothing needs to change except human beings, and when they learn how the Mind and the brain actually work, then they can and will certain change their perspective, which in turn will show them what the True and Ultimate picture can BE, and will be-come.

These are my own impressions. This is why your idea of everyone agreeing to create a better world makes no sense to me.

Again, this is NOT about everyone agreeing to create a better world. This is about what it is that everyone agrees with, which in turn ultimately HAPPENS to create a better world.

Does it really not make to sense to you to want to create a better 'world', which is done just by a way of living, than it does to make a worse world? Do you not agree that we would be better of if all of us adults changed our behaviors for the better, so that all of us could live in a better place, that is, less wars, less pollution, and less greed, than it would be to just keep on misbehaving the way that we are now, which appears to be creating more wars, more pollution, and more greed?

By the way I do not see how your impressions are in actual conflict with mine and so I can not see why my actual idea, and not my perceived idea, would make no sense to you. All I see is that we have different views, at the moment, which is totally understandable from the past experiences that we have both been exposed to.

It makes more sense to shift perspective out of the view that such a thing is necessary.

With love,

Lacewing

If human beings on a whole WANT to keep on living, then finding what it is that they all agree on working together as One towards the same goal is actually necessary.

If human beings want to keep going on in their own selfish ways trying to satisfy their own greedy desires, then they will will not keep living, and more importantly they would not desire to keep on living. Human beings as a whole have a choice to make, either they keep on going the way they are, with the obvious consequences that will result. Or, they want to and make a change. What they choose is completely up to them. NO one is telling them what to do nor making them do anything they do not want to do. I just KNOW what I would choose to do if I was supposedly the most intelligent species about.

Apologies in advance for the typos and errors as I did not re-read and edit this, the multiple times as I usually do.

With love also,

ken

[Lacewing]

Throughout your whole life you have had to settle on doing things 'one way', that is until you find a better or more successful way, right? If so, then you settle on that way, for a time being, also, am I right?

I just don’t think it’s that simple. After reading your latest reply, I’ve now gotten the impression that you are mainly focused on the treatment of children and people. Is this correct? If so, there is not one way that I treat everyone. Different people and different situations seem to require varying treatment as seems appropriate. It is an art, not a routine.

ONLY what everyone agrees with IS the right, or more appropriate, or better, WAY.

What happens if everyone is delusional? Do you think that agreement alone indicates some sort of “better” awareness?

An inability to see perfection does not mean it doesn’t exist.

How do we explain to a child who is being abused that this is just 'what is' and it is perfection?

For the record, I find it difficult to follow a logical path of discussion when you do these apparent “shifts” in focus. To me it has appeared that you’ve been speaking in general, broad terms –- more on the universal level -– and so I have responded in that way, but now suddenly you’re talking about effects on children and talking to children. Very different scope and purpose, from my view.

Many, many, many children go through horrendous things. There may be no one to love or protect them. It is part of the dense human world. They came here... they are EQUAL spirit beings (or whatever it is that we all are)... and they have their dense human experience. It makes the most sense to me that these beings are fully equipped to take this journey in all its horror. They accept it. They experience it. For however long it lasts. Just like an animal. I think the advantage that children have is that their minds are freer – they don’t have expectations and demands built-up. They arrive and start exploring. They learn how to navigate. Little children who are dying of cancer seem to be the most brave little warriors of all. They’re not taking it in the same way that adults do. Adults are the ones who seem to have perfected the art of suffering: they seem tortured more by their own developed minds than by any externally-applied torture. A child doesn’t seem to take things as seriously. Either they’re here or they’re not. They don’t cling. They don’t regret. They belong and are connected WAY BEYOND the physical experience. That’s how it seems to me.

You might ask, “Are you saying, Lacewing, that we should do nothing to love and help children?” My answer is: Of course I’m NOT saying such a thing. I’m focused, for the purpose of this discussion, on perspective. For me, perspective and understanding are a starting point for maintaining clarity and love and acceptance... and therefore, effectiveness. If one becomes too mired in the physical drama, it can be difficult to see anything beyond it. Then one simply wrestles with it and struggles to be heard above the noise. My focus is on what we might be able to transform from a clearer “frequency” so-to-speak. Seeing and communicating outside of the drama. Not being intoxicated by the drama. I think children operate more on that frequency too. I think there is clarity and acceptance and love there.

Nothing is ultimately keeping any individual awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one’s experience.

To Me there is. The things that keep any individual's awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one's experience.... are; beliefs, and, assumptions.

I don't consider beliefs and assumptions as an ultimate barrier; they are simply of a denser perspective. They can be changed and risen above.

There is not even a “goal”... there is just magnificent ongoing creation and expansion, within which limitless experiences are possible.

Where do you think/imagine the ongoing creation is heading towards?

I don’t think that way. There is no destination... there is no goal... there is only ongoing creation and destruction. And THAT is naturally beautiful and complete.

Does it really not make to sense to you to want to create a better 'world', which is done just by a way of living, than it does to make a worse world? Do you not agree that we would be better of if all of us adults changed our behaviors for the better, so that all of us could live in a better place, that is, less wars, less pollution, and less greed...

Of course I want to help transform the world for the "better"! But it makes sense to me that our greatest transformation/potential occurs on a less-dense level -- one of broader acceptance and understanding -- rather than wrestling in and with the density of it. (What we resist persists.) Imagine that you’re in a mud pit, thrashing around to try to clean up the mud. It’s difficult when you’re immersed in it, as it coats everything you see, think, and attempt to do. Now imagine that you levitate out of the mud pit... ...and from the aerial view you realize there is simply a valve off to the side, that will drain the mud pit -– you just couldn’t see it from where you were operating before. (Seeking clarity vs. seeking control.) Then a transformation becomes possible. Then you are more empowered and can communicate broader potential and accessibility to others.

I don’t think this communication only happens on a physcial level... I think it can be picked up on a mental and spiritual network we are all plugged into. The more people who stop wrestling in the mud pit, the more clearly and broadly more people will see beyond that. I also don't think this is about achieving anything specific or going “anywhere” though. (Some people apparently came here to experience mud wrestling.) I think a linear path is an illusion. Rather, it seems to me that there are vast realities that can be experienced and shared from a single point.

[Dalek Prime]

You do not have to spend any more time, to show me, other than the time it takes to write, "You are wrong".

I’m sure you appreciate the effort of someone to bring clarity... rather than just giving you those words alone. A person may still wish, however, that they didn’t have to devote energy to such phantoms created by others.

If I am analyzing something other than the thoughts and feelings within a human body, for example if I said, "The sky is not blue", then yes i certainly appreciate the effort of someone to bring clarity to why I am wrong. I have said on occasions that if I am perceived to be wrong, then I just do not want to be told "Your are wrong", I want to be where exactly in my views are wrong and more importantly exactly WHY I am wrong. However, if I am analyzing a person, that is, the thoughts and feelings within a human body, then all I need to be told is "You are wrong". I have no other means of knowing what the actual truth is, so the only thing I can do is accept what they say. To Me, there is a huge difference here between analyzing a person, and analyzing any other thing.

Throughout our discussions I have noticed that you have a strong belief that coming together and finding a unified agreement on one way that could show us all and lead us all to an ultimate answer/truth is not possible. Is this correct?

It’s not that I don’t think it’s possible... I just don’t see the point. I see value and strength and entertainment and perfection in the seemingly infinite and changeable expansion and exploration of vast potential... never settling on one way.

As I have already suggested the 'one way' is NOT unchangeable and may in fact be changed within a year or a month or two. Throughout your whole life you have had to settle on doing things 'one way', that is until you find a better or more successful way, right? If so, then you settle on that way, for a time being, also, am I right?

It would be like sitting at a banquet table, but everybody decides to only eat from one choice that offers the most nutrients. People may have different requirements and tastes, even if they are capable of being agreeable with the group.

So we agree that we can be agreeable? (Remembering what we can do is different form what we want to do).

Now, IF, and only, IF everyone decides on the same way to eat, because that is the best for all of them, then so be it. That is what just happened or 'what is'. I do not recall ever saying anything other than that, and that is, ONLY what everyone agrees with IS the right, or more appropriate, or better, WAY. And, If, and only, If everyone is in agreement on "settling" on that one agreed upon and accepted way, for however short or long a time that is, then that is for the time being the one and only way that everyone chooses to go on. If there is NO one disagreeing and not accepting, then it is by all means the one and only chosen way.

Also, adults sitting at a banquet table and choosing what to eat is a bit different from what I have been talking about regarding a way for the whole of human kind to raise children for however long more that is the best for ALL those children, and thus adults as well.

this coming to agreement in a truly unified way, for the better of all of us, might just be the next evolving step and way for human beings.

Maybe. But what is better than the perfection of what is?

To Me, that is fine if 'what is' is something that human beings do not have much say over, like the weather. But when 'what is' comes down to the way human beings treat or mistreat each other, then one of the better attempts to "justify" ones own wrong behaviors to them self, is to tell them self 'that is what is', or 'that is the way it is meant to be', or any other of the countless ways human beings try to justify their wrong behaviors, when they are mistreating other human beings. A classic attempt of trying to justify their own wrong behavior when an adult is hitting a child is, "I was hit as a child and it never did me any harm". Their belief that 'it' [the hitting of them] never did them any harm blinds them to the actual fact of what they are doing, that is, using violence or extreme behavior on a child to coerce or get them to behave in a certain WAY.

An inability to see that perfection does not mean it doesn’t exist.

How do we explain to a child who is being abused that this is just 'what is' and it is perfection? How do we tell them that there is no better way? Even though they themselves know deep down that there must be a better way.

Why WOULDN’T it be perfect?

Because I think perfection is not some thing that we could actually reach. But I do know that there is certainly much better ways we all could be doing in the way we think about and treat each other, which in turn effects the way our children are raised, who will in turn obviously be raising there children, and so on...

Are humans that powerful to mess up a much greater perfection... or are they playing their perfect role within it?

As the saying goes, "We are doing the best we can", but to Me, that is a cope out for wanting to do better. I agree human beings are doing the best they can, with the knowledge they have now, but I know when human beings gain the knowledge, answers, or truths of all the meaningful questions in Life, then they will certainly be able to far, far better than they are now.

I would say No human beings are no where near powerful to mess up a much greater perfection, and in fact human beings are in the perfect position they are right NOW. Always have been and always will be. That greater perfection has allowed human beings to evolve with the free will to choose whatever they want to but they are also equally predestined because of the limited amount of knowledge that they have at any particular time throughout their life. The greatest gift the greater perfection gave human beings, besides the amazing human brain, is the ability to freely choose what they want to do and achieve and to LEARN by their MISTAKES, which up to now has happened in to frequently, but that is another matter.

As with each greater step up the evolutionary ladder, so to speak, have come from just one person who has discovered, or maybe more correctly, stumbled upon more or newer knowledge, which has helped move the generations forward. This was not because of that one sole person but rather because of all the people around them and before them equally. No one person would be in the position that they are in at any given moment if absolutely every other thing in the Universe was not in the exact perfect place that it was in, at any given moment. Let us say, for example, that one who just happened to stumble upon some knowledge, of which they did not know how to express succinctly, nor even properly nor remotely clearly, no matter how many times they tried to express and no matter to how many people they to express it to. Now, this person goes a philosophy forum website just to learn how to express better, and finally achieves this, and then goes away and writes a story, from which a whole generation of human beings learn how to change the way they look at and see things, which in turn turns the whole of society of people around, which in turn them produces and creates are truly non-polluting, peaceful loving and harmonious world for each and every one. Now, this certainly did not happen because any one person was any less or any better than any other person, nor because any one person knew more or less than any other person but solely because that is the way perfection had allowed all things to evolve into that. The infinite creative energy has always been manifesting Itself through shaping and forming absolutely everything to be-come what It wants to BE.

Is the universe that dysfunctional and disconnected that it would spin off totally nonsensical creations that need to be fixed?

No, but just maybe the Universe spun off some evolving (and on a lot of occasions nonsensical) creations, which are always capable of learning how to become better, or more fixed, if only they always remained open to learning that. But sadly these creations just seem to love believing (in) some things, which closes them off to learning and discovering. There is a very sensible reason why beliefs, through the belief system, are so strong and so strongly built into human beings but that is for another discussion later, when more is learned.

Are the things that we think need to be fixed, ONLY due to our smaller and personal levels of perception/understanding... or do they extend beyond ourselves to all of humankind?

To me the ONLY things in Life that need to be "fixed" is us human beings ourselves. We are the ONLY things that can and do do wrong, so we are the only things that NEED to change. To Me, this only applies to the adult human beings also. Children do not ask to come into this world and they also do not have a choice what kind of what they are being brought into and up in. So, they have no choice in what they are exposed to and thus what they experience, therefore they have no choice in what they learn and/or do not learn. However as some stage in a human beings life they have to take full control and take full responsibility for ALL of their behaviors.

Just maybe after learning how to come together as One, and work together as One, instead of only working individually or selectively, this might only be just the beginning of a completely new way of looking at and seeing things, more like how a truly infinite creative being would see things.

And what would that truly infinite creative being then do with a material and limited world like ours?

I am not sure what world you think is "ours"?

The only "world" that I know of is this One and ONLY Universe, which I think will be found is actually infinite, limitless, boundless, and eternal. The Universe is, to Me, also obviously made of the material and the non-material. So, there is nothing at all that a truly infinite creative being could or could not do.

What would be the point of such a world when all thinking is visibly as One?

I really hope I have not projected this idea at all, because that is certainly NOT what I was trying to express at all. To Me, there can not be two human beings thinking the exact same way, that is just about impossible because of the very way thoughts are gained and obtained. So, as long as there are human beings there will always be different thinking, and there will be as many different set of thoughts as there are human beings.

What I have been trying to express was and is NEVER about thinking the same way of having to think the same way. What I have just been trying to express is those actual thoughts that just happen to be the exact same thoughts that ALL human beings share are the ones that can and will unify and unite human beings together as One. The beautiful of Life, Itself, is the variety and abundance of separate and differing things.

Which by the way, I think we already are. I think we ARE already one... playing out infinite possibilities. If our awareness CAME BACK to that, the show stops... because the show needs characters and variety.

The actual thing that truly links and unites us ALL as One IS absolutely truly wonderful and amazing, and when fully conscious or aware of what It actually is will leave people absolutely dumbfounded. But what is just as amazing is the thing that separates and divides us ALL, this awareness will also leave people speechless, for a time being.

The "show" will NEVER stop because like you say "the show needs characters and variety" and because the show ALWAYS, and in all ways, has characters and variety It can not nor will not stop. Never has and never will. There was no end, the is no beginning. The only end is right here, right NOW, which is also just the beginning. The show MUST and WILL go on.

Nothing is ultimately keeping any individual awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one’s experience.

To Me there is. The things that keep any individual's awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one's experience are the very things that keeps individual from seeing, and understanding. Those things are; beliefs, and, assumptions. Human beings can only see, (or understand), things if they are open to them, and, beliefs and assumptions close people off, to learning and discovering.

There is a wide range of “vision” throughout people on this planet. Increased vision does not rely on making agreements about what is right. Many would say, the only thing wrong is to think it’s all wrong.

Just to reinforce I have NEVER said anything about "making agreements". I have only ever mentioned about those things that happen to be in agreement with every one ARE what is right, true, and/or correct. For the simple reason that there is NO one disagreeing. AND, even this agreement should not be believed in to be the ultimate Truth because once some thing is believed, then openness is shut, and then continue learning and discovering is not possible.

I have never heard it said nor mentioned that "It's all wrong" before. It certainly is not that, to Me.

The wide range of "vision", when shared, is what allows a bigger and thus truer picture to be painted. Obviously the vision that is shared and not agreed with is obviously not worth adding to the big picture, but just as obvious is THAT what is shared and agreed with among ALL is the only vision to be added. This commonly shared by ALL would make common sense to ALL and must be added to from a one and only True picture of Life, Its Self.

I’m thinking of the inner and outer universe as having many layers of varying densities.

To Me, there is no inner nor outer universe. There is just the One and only Universe, with the exact same density.

To be in the denser levels is to feel more trapped, and to be less capable of seeing through obstacles and human fabrications. When one sees through those, there is naturally increased understanding and freer movement -– no agreement about what is good or necessary is required. There is not even a “goal”... there is just magnificent ongoing creation and expansion, within which limitless experiences are possible.

Where do you think/imagine the ongoing creation is heading towards?

Could one of those limitless experiences that are possible be that ALL human beings start working towards a 'goal', which is wanted and shared equally by ALL people anyway. This equally shared desired goal coming from the exact same equally infinite creative being, moving us ALL towards the magnificent ongoing creation of living happily and peacefully together forever more within the expanse of our One and only HOME - the Universe?

The only thing to really “change” is our perspective within the ocean of varying densities and possibilities. More movement and visibility is possible at less density. The ocean doesn’t need to change; the ocean is not wrong.

As I said previously nothing needs to change except human beings, and when they learn how the Mind and the brain actually work, then they can and will certain change their perspective, which in turn will show them what the True and Ultimate picture can BE, and will be-come.

These are my own impressions. This is why your idea of everyone agreeing to create a better world makes no sense to me.

Again, this is NOT about everyone agreeing to create a better world. This is about what it is that everyone agrees with, which in turn ultimately HAPPENS to create a better world.

Does it really not make to sense to you to want to create a better 'world', which is done just by a way of living, than it does to make a worse world? Do you not agree that we would be better of if all of us adults changed our behaviors for the better, so that all of us could live in a better place, that is, less wars, less pollution, and less greed, than it would be to just keep on misbehaving the way that we are now, which appears to be creating more wars, more pollution, and more greed?

By the way I do not see how your impressions are in actual conflict with mine and so I can not see why my actual idea, and not my perceived idea, would make no sense to you. All I see is that we have different views, at the moment, which is totally understandable from the past experiences that we have both been exposed to.

It makes more sense to shift perspective out of the view that such a thing is necessary.

With love,

Lacewing

If human beings on a whole WANT to keep on living, then finding what it is that they all agree on working together as One towards the same goal is actually necessary.

If human beings want to keep going on in their own selfish ways trying to satisfy their own greedy desires, then they will will not keep living, and more importantly they would not desire to keep on living. Human beings as a whole have a choice to make, either they keep on going the way they are, with the obvious consequences that will result. Or, they want to and make a change. What they choose is completely up to them. NO one is telling them what to do nor making them do anything they do not want to do. I just KNOW what I would choose to do if I was supposedly the most intelligent species about.

Apologies in advance for the typos and errors as I did not re-read and edit this, the multiple times as I usually do.

With love also,

ken

Holy cow

PS. Lace, I'm sorry I overreacted. You're a good person, and I recognize your support. I hope you'll forgive me.

[ken]

Throughout your whole life you have had to settle on doing things 'one way', that is until you find a better or more successful way, right? If so, then you settle on that way, for a time being, also, am I right?

I just don’t think it’s that simple. After reading your latest reply, I’ve now gotten the impression that you are mainly focused on the treatment of children and people. Is this correct?

Yes it is correct that the treatment of each other, especially children, is what I am mainly focused on. The way we each behave or misbehave, which ends up inevitably towards each other, is about the only thing that we, human beings, actually have control of and over. Everything else is just a part of the larger perfection that you talk about, which human beings certainly have no control over.

If so, there is not one way that I treat everyone. Different people and different situations seem to require varying treatment as seems appropriate. It is an art, not a routine.

What you personally do is fair enough, and I am pretty sure the way you treat everyone is pretty much the exact same way all people treat each other, that is each human beings treat different people and different situations to varying degrees. However, if there was one way, let us just say that way was DO NOT ABUSE, under any circumstances, and, every person agreed with that way, then could you now agree that there might just be one way, which is (far) better than another way?

Or, do you still strongly believe that there is not one way?

ONLY what everyone agrees with IS the right, or more appropriate, or better, WAY.

What happens if everyone is delusional?

If every is delusional, then everyone is delusional. That is just 'what is'. No one is going to know any difference or be any wiser so it does not really matter at all.

Do you think that agreement alone indicates some sort of “better” awareness?

Based on the fact that the more people that are aware that could be in agreement, then the more 'better' awareness could be.

For example we know of cases where one person can be in agreement with their own thoughts and thinking, but those thoughts and thinking can be and are completely delusional. This kind of agreed upon knowledge of what is actually delusional, can exist with any number of people, but surely with the amount of completely varying situations with greater larger numbers of people, and how many varying different experiences and thus views are exponentially gained from those greater numbers of people, then surely those commonly held and shared views, which are actually in agreement with everyone, then the less chances those views would be, right?

An inability to see perfection does not mean it doesn’t exist.

How do we explain to a child who is being abused that this is just 'what is' and it is perfection?

For the record, I find it difficult to follow a logical path of discussion when you do these apparent “shifts” in focus.

Also for the record, I also thought the same thing when you wrote that inability to see perfection sentence. I was not sure how nor why your shift in focus went to, "An inability to see perfection does not mean it doesn't exist". I certainly never mentioned anything like that nor about that prior, and I certainly would never even think opposing that. An inability to see ANYTHING does not mean it does not exist. Just like the ability to see SOMETHING does not mean it does exist. That is what 'delusion' actually refers to and if truthful we have ALL been guilty of that at some point in our lives. So, not really sure why you shifted to that point.

But anyway, maybe the reason we both make shifts in focus could be due to the fact that it is extremely hard to gain a perspective of where the other is actually coming from if we are just making assumptions and not actually asking for clarification, and in return clarifying in a completely open and honest way with each other. Obviously, asking open-ended, clarifying questions first, before making assumptions, really helps in this regard.

To me it has appeared that you’ve been speaking in general, broad terms –- more on the universal level -– and so I have responded in that way, but now suddenly you’re talking about effects on children and talking to children. Very different scope and purpose, from my view.

From my view the only ones who have any fuller understanding of and on the Universal level is human beings. Where do human beings begin to gain knowledge and understand? Whilst as children. So, the effects on children, by the way we, adults, talk to, at, and about them I think is very, very important, and far, far more important than human beings actually realize yet. The things we, adults, actually say and do has a far greater effect on children and what they learn than is fully realized and understood yet.

To Me, absolutely EVERY thing is a just part of the Universal and on the same One Universal level, including human beings and also the younger human beings, that is, the children. No thing is separate, different, above, nor beyond the Universe. We, Everything, are ALL on the same level.

Many, many, many children go through horrendous things. There may be no one to love or protect them. It is part of the dense human world.

What are you actually saying here, that this is okay and all right, or are you saying some thing else?

When you witness a child being abused is there not one part of your whole being that says this is not the right way?

Do you just accept the abuse of children as this is just 'what is'?

I can also say what horrendous things adults do to children and explain it as this is just what happens but that does not mean I accept it nor agree with it in any way, shape, nor form. I KNOW from my childhood there is a better way.

They came here... they are EQUAL spirit beings (or whatever it is that we all are)... and they have their dense human experience. It makes the most sense to me that these beings are fully equipped to take this journey in all its horror. They accept it. They experience it. For however long it lasts. Just like an animal. I think the advantage that children have is that their minds are freer – they don’t have expectations and demands built-up. They arrive and start exploring. They learn how to navigate. Little children who are dying of cancer seem to be the most brave little warriors of all.

Every part of that is all true to Me also, except the last sentence, which I will always question when I hear things like that; How exactly are they the most brave?

Is not every human being dying?

How, exactly, is it brave to, (or want to), stay alive, while the body is still breathing and pumping blood?

They’re not taking it in the same way that adults do. Adults are the ones who seem to have perfected the art of suffering: they seem tortured more by their own developed minds than by any externally-applied torture. A child doesn’t seem to take things as seriously. Either they’re here or they’re not. They don’t cling. They don’t regret. They belong and are connected WAY BEYOND the physical experience. That’s how it seems to me.

And, to Me, they are all great points, which form great questions, for YOU to answer. So, WHY is this so?

WHY do YOU as an adult suffer more, are tortured more, take things more seriously, cling, regret, and do not belong and are not connected WAY BEYOND the physical experience?

The true and right answer to each and everyone of these, which I am fully aware you believe does not exist, ARE really freeing.

You might ask, “Are you saying, Lacewing, that we should do nothing to love and help children?” My answer is: Of course I’m NOT saying such a thing. I’m focused, for the purpose of this discussion, on perspective. For me, perspective and understanding are a starting point for maintaining clarity and love and acceptance... and therefore, effectiveness.

Fair enough, but what exactly is the perspective WE should be focusing on? And, perspective and understanding of what exactly are a starting point for maintaining clarity and love and acceptance, and therefore, effectiveness.

To Me, the starting point for maintaining clarity, love, and acceptance for effectiveness, to make change so that NO child is abused, which to Me is a better way than we, human beings, are heading now IS to ALWAYS REMAIN OPEN. That way there is the instinctual knowing and drive to question everything, instead of just assuming and guessing that "I know right". This is the perspective and focus I am on.

If one becomes too mired in the physical drama, it can be difficult to see anything beyond it. Then one simply wrestles with it and struggles to be heard above the noise. My focus is on what we might be able to transform from a clearer “frequency” so-to-speak. Seeing and communicating outside of the drama. Not being intoxicated by the drama. I think children operate more on that frequency too. I think there is clarity and acceptance and love there.

I think that exactly also. In fact it was children who taught what the actual frequency IS. And, by the way, the younger the child the greater teacher they are.

Nothing is ultimately keeping any individual awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one’s experience.

To Me there is. The things that keep any individual's awareness from seeing beyond the various veils and levels that filter one's experience.... are; beliefs, and, assumptions.

I don't consider beliefs and assumptions as an ultimate barrier; they are simply of a denser perspective. They can be changed and risen above.

Yes true they can be very quickly, simply, and easily changed and risen above, once you know-HOW. But until the veils are lifted one is mired in their own beliefs and assumptions.

I did not mean that those veils and levels that filter one's experience can never be ultimately removed and discarded completely. I meant that while they are there, they are an ultimate barrier, ultimately keeping awareness mired and locked behind closed doors.

Also, and I ask this quite frequently but never get a response, WHY make assumptions and keep beliefs, if they can be changed and risen above anyway. If they can be changed and risen above, then that means they are NOT right, so WHY have them, let alone maintain them, in the first place?

There is not even a “goal”... there is just magnificent ongoing creation and expansion, within which limitless experiences are possible.

Where do you think/imagine the ongoing creation is heading towards?

I don’t think that way. There is no destination... there is no goal... there is only ongoing creation and destruction. And THAT is naturally beautiful and complete.

So, if human beings move in the direction that they seem to be heading in now, that is, they could bomb and pollute each other till there is none or at least not many left, then THAT is naturally beautiful and complete, to you?

Also, you seem so adamant that there is no destination, and that there is no goal, like that is an ultimate answer or truth, yet you have also expressed that there is NO point to ultimate answers nor truths.

You have expressed;
"The problem can come when we try to apply our own experience onto some ultimate template of truth for all, right? There are so many variations. This is why I cannot agree with the way theism is typically superimposed over all else. It is not truth for a lot of people. There is so much more than any particular theism. I wish particularized theists could accept/acknowledge that, but I realize that would go against their whole particular theist foundation/identity of "having THE ultimate answer/truth that applies to all". It just seems so absurd to believe."

Now, if we change just one or two words here let us see if this will reflect back on to you about what you are actually doing yourse,lf in the exact same way. If the word 'theism' can refer to religious ideologies and the beliefs surrounding religious ideologies, and 'theist' can refer to people who believe (in), follow, preach or try to teach religious ideologies, as an ultimate answer or truth, then let us change these two words because any religious overtones is no reflection at all of what you are doing, and really quite the opposite of what you are wanting to do and trying to achieve, am I right?

If so, if we change the word 'theism' (the-ism) to 'thisism' (this-ism) to reflect any ideology, and, 'theist' (the-ist) to 'thisist' (this-ist) to reflect any person who is a believer, follower or teacher of any ideology, as an ultimate answer or truth, then let us see how this effects what you, yourself, have written;
"There is no destination... there is no goal... there is only ongoing creation and destruction. And THAT is naturally beautiful and complete."

Writing, There is NO destination, and, there is NO goal... there is ONLY... in that kind of way, sounds like a pretty fixed "ultimate truth" expressed "for all", which is totally irrefutable.

Does this sound like some one trying to apply their own experience onto some ultimate template of truth for all?
Does this allow for any of the other of the so many variations?
Does it appear this thisism is being typically superimposed over all else?
Does there appear to be any more than this particular thisism?
Do you or some people wish particularized thisists could accept/acknowledge that there is so much more than any particular thisism?
Do you or some people realize that if particularized thisists could or would accept/acknowledge that there is so much more than any particular thisism, then that would go against their whole particular thisist foundation/identity of "having THE ultimate answer/truth that applies to all"?
Does this just seem so absurd to believe?

Does any of this sound familiar or look like a reflection of 'you' because this is what you expressly wrote (with the two words changed);

"The problem can come when we try to apply our own experience onto some ultimate template of truth for all, right? There are so many variations. This is why I cannot agree with the way thisism is typically superimposed over all else. It is not truth for a lot of people. There is so much more than any particular thisism. I wish particularized thisists could accept/acknowledge that, but I realize that would go against their whole particular theist foundation/identity of "having THE ultimate answer/truth that applies to all". It just seems so absurd to believe."

By the way expressing 'thoughts', from within, as though they are an ultimate of truth for all, is a completely natural thing to do because 'thoughts', literally, ARE the individual 'YOU', inside every individual human body.

You also expressed;
"I consider the vastness of the universe and think: How could there possibly only be one appropriate way to do or perceive ANYTHING??? Our efforts to pin down specific answers/views seem only for our own temporary stabilizing comfort... because otherwise, our obsession with limited conclusions doesn't truthfully represent the potential of a seemingly limitless universe that we only perceive a tiny fraction of (if even that)."

Yet by also expressing;
"There is NO destination and there is NO goal, there is ONLY...." IS also trying to superimpose, an ultimate template of truth for all, over all else.

Again, there is nothing wrong with doing that when it is done completely unconsciously. But once knowing how to stay completely OPEN always, then ALL the veils are lifted, and then awareness (or consciousness) comes to the forefront and ALL things become much clearer. From a completely OPEN viewpoint there is absolutely no density at all. ALL of 'what IS' can been seen and understood for what IT really IS.

Does it really not make to sense to you to want to create a better 'world', which is done just by a way of living, than it does to make a worse world? Do you not agree that we would be better of if all of us adults changed our behaviors for the better, so that all of us could live in a better place, that is, less wars, less pollution, and less greed...

Of course I want to help transform the world for the "better"! But it makes sense to me that our greatest transformation/potential occurs on a less-dense level -- one of broader acceptance and understanding -- rather than wrestling in and with the density of it. (What we resist persists.)

I agree totally and wholeheartedly, that is why I have been trying to express the importance of OPENNESS. From a completely OPEN viewpoint there is no dense. There is only love, acceptance, and understanding with and for ALL.

I am not resisting anything. I do this by asking truly open-ended, inquisitive and clarifying questions from a truly completely OPEN viewpoint.

I am just learning how to better express, so that 'I' can be better accepted and understood for who 'I' truly am. There is absolutely nothing to resist from this advantage point.

Imagine that you’re in a mud pit, thrashing around to try to clean up the mud. It’s difficult when you’re immersed in it, as it coats everything you see, think, and attempt to do. Now imagine that you levitate out of the mud pit... ...and from the aerial view you realize there is simply a valve off to the side, that will drain the mud pit -– you just couldn’t see it from where you were operating before. (Seeking clarity vs. seeking control.) Then a transformation becomes possible. Then you are more empowered and can communicate broader potential and accessibility to others.

I still find it amazing that when I write replies sometimes I do it quote by quote or sentence by sentence before I read the next one, and how you somehow provide Me with answers to what I am looking for, in the very next quote.

I don’t think this communication only happens on a physcial level... I think it can be picked up on a mental and spiritual network we are all plugged into. The more people who stop wrestling in the mud pit, the more clearly and broadly more people will see beyond that. I also don't think this is about achieving anything specific or going “anywhere” though.

What about achieving that mental and Spiritual communication that you just talked about is the specific thing we ALL need to achieve, that will lead us to "somewhere" better.

You also have to admit that you also want to transform this physical world into a better one, not necessarily for us two personally but for our species as a whole, and, just maybe the best way, (and dare I say it only way) is for us to learn how to communicate far better on the Spiritual level?

By the way I never thought ANY OF THIS, besides the outcome, was about the physical level anyway.

(Some people apparently came here to experience mud wrestling.)

That is very obvious, and very understandable also considering the past experiences they have endured.

I think a linear path is an illusion. Rather, it seems to me that there are vast realities that can be experienced and shared from a single point.

Where and what that single point is exactly is what I have been alluding to all along.
How to get there is very simple, quick, and easily, once you have the know-HOW, and with know-HOW, or, in other words, once you know-HOW to.
Why there is a single point can be easily understood.
When we reach that single point is when we ALL get there as One, and when that is IS when we are ALL in agreement.

[Lacewing]

Okay, I think I must respond to your mega-post in installments for the sake of clarity, focus, and sanity (if that’s still possible).

The way we each behave or misbehave, which ends up inevitably towards each other, is about the only thing that we, human beings, actually have control of and over.

Can we be aware enough of all the subliminal, and unconscious, and self-protective, and delusional, and other interfering energies that are associated with being human... to ever have a hope in these forms of being able to control ourselves, let alone agree with everyone else?

Everything else is just a part of the larger perfection that you talk about, which human beings certainly have no control over.

Now why do you think this? Why would humans have control over their crazy-ass selves, yet be separate from influencing the larger perfection?

Why doesn’t the larger perfection include all the crazy-ass creative stuff... and why aren’t humans integrally in the creative mix?

[Lacewing]

let us just say that way was DO NOT ABUSE, under any circumstances, and, every person agreed with that way, then could you now agree that there might just be one way, which is (far) better than another way?

Aside from the fact that I’m still wondering how you think people can realistically reach the point of having enough awareness over their crazy-ass selves, don’t people also have different ideas about what abuse actually is and whether it’s overriden by some OTHER/GREATER priority for themselves (religious directives, job, country, family, culture, vengeance, etc.)?

Based on the fact that the more people that are aware that could be in agreement, then the more 'better' awareness could be.

This line of logic just doesn’t compute for me, Ken. If it computes for you, go with it. But I don’t think there’s any point in us discussing this point any more. We are looking on things from different directions.

I was not sure how nor why your shift in focus went to, "An inability to see perfection does not mean it doesn't exist". I certainly never mentioned anything like that nor about that prior, and I certainly would never even think opposing that.

Because it appears that your position is that things are NOT perfect, and need to be fixed! That's why I said it.

Do you just accept the abuse of children as this is just 'what is'?

Ken, I’ve already addressed this. Everything I say is about PERSPECTIVE. I am not here to come up with a magic list of “fix-it” solutions. I believe that CLARITY in perspective is where everything is controlled from... so I’m focused on that. I cannot argue endless angles and possibilities with you. I’m just not willing to invest my energy like that. I’m here to have fun. Please know that I care about abused children (as I’ve said, I was one), just as much as anyone!

Little children who are dying of cancer seem to be the most brave little warriors of all.

I will always question when I hear things like that; How exactly are they the most brave?

Because their spirits seem to retain happiness and acceptance. I see that as brave in the face of worldly drama.

WHY do YOU as an adult suffer more, are tortured more, take things more seriously, cling, regret, and do not belong and are not connected WAY BEYOND the physical experience?

Because that’s what we intoxicated humans do!

The true and right answer to each and everyone of these, which I am fully aware you believe does not exist, ARE really freeing.

I don’t understand what you’re saying. What is it that I don’t believe exists, which you are fully aware that I don’t believe?

what exactly is the perspective WE should be focusing on? And, perspective and understanding of what exactly are a starting point for maintaining clarity and love and acceptance, and therefore, effectiveness.

There isn’t one thing to focus on. Rather, I think it’s about getting all of your mental crap OUT OF THE FUCKING WAY so that you can see the clarity BEHIND IT ALL, which is the same clarity that children have.

To Me, the starting point for maintaining clarity, love, and acceptance for effectiveness, to make change so that NO child is abused...

Yes, you’re consumed by what you think. I can’t go there with you.

I’ve done my best to describe my perspective and to answer your questions. You and I are simply not looking through the same lense. And this is a perfect demonstration of why the idea of everyone agreeing on “one way” doesn’t seem realistic to me. There are SO MANY lenses to look through!!

Also, and I ask this quite frequently but never get a response, WHY make assumptions and keep beliefs, if they can be changed and risen above anyway. If they can be changed and risen above, then that means they are NOT right, so WHY have them, let alone maintain them, in the first place?

Because people are often intoxicated and zombie-like... moving in familiar patterns... not seeing what’s in front of them... for all kinds of “payoffs” and reasons... comfort, ego, ignorance, avoiding fear, etc.

So, if human beings move in the direction that they seem to be heading in now, that is, they could bomb and pollute each other till there is none or at least not many left, then THAT is naturally beautiful and complete, to you?

Yes. To me it appears... It’s our learning/exploratory process, evidently. We had to try it out as one of the infinite possibilities of a creative universe. Does that mean it doesn’t fucking break my heart? Of course it breaks my heart! But I’m trying to understand a bigger picture than the horrific drama in the mud pit, and I continually strive for ever-increasing clarity and love.

Also, you seem so adamant that there is no destination, and that there is no goal, like that is an ultimate answer or truth, yet you have also expressed that there is NO point to ultimate answers nor truths.

I’m telling you how it looks from my perspective. I don’t know any ultimate truth.

Okay, I need a break...

[Lacewing]

Okay, I'm going to finish up my response to the mega-post now, so that I can run wildly through the woods with glee at having accomplished such a feat. And then I think I'm probably done with all of this. Whether you consider it so, this is my gift to you, Ken. I could have said a few curse words and ignored everything (which I considered doing many times).

you, yourself, have written;
"There is no destination... there is no goal... there is only ongoing creation and destruction. And THAT is naturally beautiful and complete."

Writing, There is NO destination, and, there is NO goal... there is ONLY... in that kind of way, sounds like a pretty fixed "ultimate truth" expressed "for all", which is totally irrefutable.

Does this sound like some one trying to apply their own experience onto some ultimate template of truth for all?

Apparently it sounds that way to you.

Does this allow for any of the other of the so many variations?

Sure, why can’t everyone see it the way that makes sense to them? I’m describing what makes sense to me. I do not tell other people that my perspective is ultimate truth that they should abide by. I support people to believe whatever works for them – just as I hope they would support ME to do! I’ve said many times that I think that potential (and/or our awareness of it) keeps expanding, so I don’t consider my perspective as some sort of fixed, final, ultimate position forevermore. If it doesn’t make sense or offer value to you, Ken, leave it.

Do you or some people realize that if particularized thisists could or would accept/acknowledge that there is so much more than any particular thisism, then that would go against their whole particular thisist foundation/identity of "having THE ultimate answer/truth that applies to all"?

I do realize this, and I don’t think that way, and I’m really getting tired of the direction of your questions, which seem to make-up too much stuff for me to spend my energy responding to. I’ve shared a great deal with you so that you could see where I’m coming from. If all of these questions can still be arising, I don’t see any point in continuing.

Does any of this sound familiar or look like a reflection of 'you' because this is what you expressly wrote (with the two words changed)

Are you so intoxicated with analyzing people and finding fault-lines that you can’t actually see/hear what's being said as a complete picture?

I still find it amazing that when I write replies sometimes I do it quote by quote or sentence by sentence before I read the next one, and how you somehow provide Me with answers to what I am looking for, in the very next quote.

Right. But rather than delete your question, you leave it for me to deal with when I’ve already provided more information. This adds to the exhaustion and discouragement in responding to your posts.

You also have to admit that you also want to transform this physical world into a better one, not necessarily for us two personally but for our species as a whole, and, just maybe the best way, (and dare I say it only way) is for us to learn how to communicate far better on the Spiritual level?

I’ve already said this. Why are you presenting it to me that I “have to admit”?

Repeatedly I wonder: Are the things I say somehow triggering for you some kind of defensiveness, or some kind of need to be in a “teacher” role? I really don’t know what to make of the way you talk to me and ask questions of me. It really feels to me like you’re talking to someone else.

I think a linear path is an illusion. Rather, it seems to me that there are vast realities that can be experienced and shared from a single point.

Where and what that single point is exactly is what I have been alluding to all along.
How to get there is very simple, quick, and easily, once you have the know-HOW, and with know-HOW, or, in other words, once you know-HOW to.
Why there is a single point can be easily understood.
When we reach that single point is when we ALL get there as One, and when that is IS when we are ALL in agreement.

Fine. You want to operate from “the single point”. I think that would cease the whole purpose of the vast potential and experience that emanates from the point. You have fun with your perspective. I’ll have fun with mine.

Time to go celebrate...

[ken]

Okay, I think I must respond to your mega-post in installments for the sake of clarity, focus, and sanity (if that’s still possible).

The way we each behave or misbehave, which ends up inevitably towards each other, is about the only thing that we, human beings, actually have control of and over.

Can we be aware enough of all the subliminal, and unconscious, and self-protective, and delusional, and other interfering energies that are associated with being human... to ever have a hope in these forms of being able to control ourselves, let alone agree with everyone else?

YES, absolutely. Awareness like that is very easily reached. If i have done, then any one else can also.

Everything else is just a part of the larger perfection that you talk about, which human beings certainly have no control over.

Now why do you think this?

Because human beings are only a very tiny part of the whole (larger) perfection. Any part of system does not control the whole system. If human beings exist or not has no real bearing on an eternal, infinite larger perfection. If human beings stop existing, then another truly intelligent species will come about.

Why would humans have control over their crazy-ass selves, yet be separate from influencing the larger perfection?

Obviously because they can have control and want to have control of themselves.

I could ask, Why would human beings NOT have control over themselves?

Are you saying you can not have control over yourself?

I NEVER said human beings, nor any other thing, can not nor does not influence the larger perfection. 'Influencing' and 'controlling' are two separate words with different meanings and definitions.

Absolutely every part of the larger perfection system has influence over every other part that they come into contact and/or can influence but no one part has control over the whole system.

Why doesn’t the larger perfection include all the crazy-ass creative stuff... and why aren’t humans integrally in the creative mix?

Why did that question come about? I certainly never wrote anything to lead to that assumption.

Of course human beings are in the creative mix, and maybe far more so than probably most other things, and of course the larger perfection includes ALL stuff. I would think it silly to think otherwise.

How are you defining 'larger perfection' actually?

[ken]

let us just say that way was DO NOT ABUSE, under any circumstances, and, every person agreed with that way, then could you now agree that there might just be one way, which is (far) better than another way?

Aside from the fact that I’m still wondering how you think people can realistically reach the point of having enough awareness over their crazy-ass selves,

If you just asked for clarity by questioning Me, then you would not have to wonder anymore. By learning and/or discovering how the Mind and the brain work, and thus also learning and/or discovering one's self and who/what the true Self that is how enough awareness is reached. To learn and/or discover these meaningful answers comes from questioning everything.

Has it yet been noticed how many times I asked to be challenged, through questioning. I ask for this because I know how important questioning everything is. If anything is believed or disbelieved, then being open stops, and then questioning ultimately stops.

Do you believe it is not possible for people to gain enough awareness of themselves?

don’t people also have different ideas about what abuse actually is and whether it’s overriden by some OTHER/GREATER priority for themselves (religious directives, job, country, family, culture, vengeance, etc.)?

Yes to Me people have different ideas about what abuse actually is.

To Me abuse can not be overridden in the true sense. People can try to override their abusive behaviors towards others with attempts to justify those abusive behaviors with "justifying" thoughts, but they are only attempts. Abuse can not be justified, ever. (Unless of course this can be proven otherwise.)

Based on the fact that the more people that are aware that could be in agreement, then the more 'better' awareness could be.

This line of logic just doesn’t compute for me, Ken. If it computes for you, go with it. But I don’t think there’s any point in us discussing this point any more. We are looking on things from different directions.

If some thing does not compute with you, then that is totally understandable. Also, if you do not ask for any clarity, then that is also totally understandable. I totally understand how and why you do everything you do. I have already on numerous occasions explained WHY people stop questioning things. I have already also explained no person has to do anything that they do not want to do.

If you think there is no point in us discussing some point, then that means you are totally satisfied with what you already know and do not want to learn nor discover any thing new nor more.

Of course we are looking on things from different directions. I have been saying this all along. That is if people want to learn or discover how to create and live in a truly peaceful and harmonious world, then they need to change their perspective and direction. You want to look on things mostly from the brain or only from the knowledge that has already been obtained. I, on the other hand, want to look from the Mind or from a truly open perspective.

I was not sure how nor why your shift in focus went to, "An inability to see perfection does not mean it doesn't exist". I certainly never mentioned anything like that nor about that prior, and I certainly would never even think opposing that.

Because it appears that your position is that things are NOT perfect, and need to be fixed! That's why I said it.

Well we can look at this from two different ways. The firs one (1.) from what I think is your perspective and/or what you are trying to allude us all to, but correct Me if I am wrong.
1. Absolutely every thing is perfect and so absolutely every thing is perfect. Therefore absolutely every thing that I write and say here is also perfect. You are also NEVER negatively effected by any thing whatsoever, and any reaction to have towards another no matter how it is taken is perfect. Meaning absolutely every thing you do is perfect.

Or, the second one (2.), which is my perspective.
2. Absolutely every thing is perfect besides the way human beings can mistreat each other, themselves, and the things around them.

Now you can believe that absolutely all things are perfect and that no thing needs to be fixed. I, on the other hand, think that human beings could learn and discover how to treat each other, themselves, and some of the things around them in a better way.

To Me, I can see where and when Everything is perfect, just like EVERYTHING is in perfection NOW, always has been and always will be. The perfection of how absolutely is in perfection RIGHT NOW is that I am putting human beings on a stage right here and right now in this forum, for ALL future generations to learn from. The perfection exists in the form of creation in a permanent evolving state with human beings evolving towards learning how to create a much better life for themselves and all around them. This can and will only happen when human beings take total responsibility for the abusive or wrong things they do and want to change the direction that they are in now.

The problem here now is if people believe that absolutely every thing is perfect, then that means that they do not see any purpose in changing the direction that they are in. Obviously if a person is perfect, then they would not want to change. Are you a perfect person? If not, then are some things, namely you NOT perfect, and thus you need to be fixed, or need a change in direction? So, are you perfect?

I can certainly see perfection, where and when it exists. I can also see where and when things are not perfect, thus need to be fixed, or changed for a better word.

If you believe that ALL things are perfect and thus that human beings could not react nor behave in a slightly better towards each other, then so be it, but please do not try to tell Me that the abuse of children is acceptable, let alone perfection at its best. I think there is a better way for human beings to treat each other and unless you are open to changing direction then you will never know if there is a better way or not. I reiterate though NO person has to do anything that they do not want to do. That means that if you do not want to change, then you do NOT have to. I do not make any human being do any thing that they do not want to do.

Do you just accept the abuse of children as this is just 'what is'?

Ken, I’ve already addressed this. Everything I say is about PERSPECTIVE. I am not here to come up with a magic list of “fix-it” solutions. I believe that CLARITY in perspective is where everything is controlled from... so I’m focused on that. I cannot argue endless angles and possibilities with you. I’m just not willing to invest my energy like that. I’m here to have fun. Please know that I care about abused children (as I’ve said, I was one), just as much as anyone!

Of course you were an abused child. The abuse is clearly seen in your writings.

If you are not here to come up with a list of fix-it solutions, then that is fine. Some of us here are here to show how ALL solutions can be found very easily, very quickly, and very simply. That is if anyone is really interested.

You believe that CLARITY in perspective is where everything is controlled from, so you are focused on that. What does CLARITY in perspective actually mean? How is it obtained? What is involved?

And, how do you think there is where everything is controlled from? Before you came across that human beings could not even control themselves, let alone everything.

Little children who are dying of cancer seem to be the most brave little warriors of all.

I will always question when I hear things like that; How exactly are they the most brave?

Because their spirits seem to retain happiness and acceptance. I see that as brave in the face of worldly drama.

Are you saying all children have different spirits from each other? Or, are you saying that children on a whole have different spirits than adults do? If so, how and at what age is happiness and acceptance lost, or changed?

Is there no adult who has died of cancer never died happy and with acceptance?

I totally agree far more children are happier and accepting in those circumstances but it is not because they are brave but because they are far more intelligent than adult human beings. To Me, a brave person is one who risks there life to save another for example. Just living with what one has I do not see as being brave.

WHY do YOU as an adult suffer more, are tortured more, take things more seriously, cling, regret, and do not belong and are not connected WAY BEYOND the physical experience?

Because that’s what we intoxicated humans do!

You did not really give much insight into WHY you do what you do. Maybe if you gave a bit more reflection and thought about why YOU are like that, then you could have given a much more insightful answer than, Because that's what we do!

I found that Instead of looking at what others do and I only concentrated on what I, my self, do I actually came to fully understand WHY ALL people do every thing that they do.

The true and right answer to each and everyone of these, which I am fully aware you believe does not exist, ARE really freeing.

I don’t understand what you’re saying. What is it that I don’t believe exists, which you are fully aware that I don’t believe?

YOU do not believe there are true and right answers, which lead to a better way of living, let alone one way for all of living better. Am I right?

If that is that is what you believe, then I am fully aware of that.

I was saying if you answered all the questions I asked of you from a truly open, honest, and deep retrospection, while wanting to change for the better, then those true and right answers, which you came to all by yourself, will show and guide you to a better way, for yourself. Those answers are the ones I say are the exact same ones for ALL people. However, you if believe they do not exist, then you will not find them.

what exactly is the perspective WE should be focusing on? And, perspective and understanding of what exactly are a starting point for maintaining clarity and love and acceptance, and therefore, effectiveness.

There isn’t one thing to focus on. Rather, I think it’s about getting all of your mental crap OUT OF THE FUCKING WAY so that you can see the clarity BEHIND IT ALL, which is the same clarity that children have.

And how do you propose you get all of your mental crap out of the way so that you can see the clarity behind all? If you just expressed the way you did it, then we can learn how to do it also.

I have been trying to express how I got 'all of the crap out of the way' so that I could see clearly and with clarity so that I understand HOW and WHY clarity is obscured and muddied in the first place. Understanding fully WHERE the obscurity is, WHAT it is exactly, and WHEN it begins mean I also know how to prevent it from occurring again. I have been trying to express this so that you also can get 'all the crap out of the way', but you continually tell Me that I do not know that way. You believe and insist that there is NO (one) way to do this. So what I say is just rejected and not really listened to.

By the way to Me the clarity that children have is no different from the clarity adults have. The case is only the clarity starts to begin to obscured at a very young age, and then becomes locked behind closed doors the older one gets, this is all depended upon what experiences one is exposed to of course. The clarity children have is the same for ALL human beings because We are ALL children in Life.

But this all depends on what does 'clarity' mean for you so I will have to ask you the clarifying question, how do you define 'clarity'?

To Me, the starting point for maintaining clarity, love, and acceptance for effectiveness, to make change so that NO child is abused...

Yes, you’re consumed by what you think. I can’t go there with you.

Why not? Could it be because you do not want to look at what you are really doing to children?

That is totally understandable. Besides one, I have yet to find another adult human being who is open and honest enough to admit that they abuse children.

I’ve done my best to describe my perspective and to answer your questions.

I KNOW you could do much better.

You and I are simply not looking through the same lense. And this is a perfect demonstration of why the idea of everyone agreeing on “one way” doesn’t seem realistic to me. There are SO MANY lenses to look through!![/quote]

AGAIN, it appears you have NOT heard what I have actually been saying. OF COURSE there are SO MANY lenses. I have said there obviously are as many different lenses as there are people that have existed. There is NO disputing of this. The only difference we are seeing here is you believe that NOT everyone could agree on one way. IF that is what you believe, then so be it. I do not really care. But each time you are going to insist that that is the truth, then expect to be challenged on it. If you can not substantiate that belief, then I will continue to question you on WHY do you believe in some thing that may not be true.

By the way the ONLY thing that I say is the one way is the ONE that every ONE agrees on.

If, and only IF, every One is agreeing, then that is one way. That tiny little statement can not be disputed. Unless of course you can do it. But I have not seen any evidence of this, yet. ALL I have seen from you is what you believe or think is true.

Also, just because you and I are looking through different lenses is NOT a perfect demonstration on people agreeing on some thing/s.

It is the things that ALL people agree on that makes one way possible. If there are NO things that every One agrees on, then so be it. There is NO thing. I have NEVER said there is. I have repeatedly only ever said IF there are things that ALL human beings agree on. A HUGE difference. I really hope one day very soon I am finally heard and understood.

Also, and I ask this quite frequently but never get a response, WHY make assumptions and keep beliefs, if they can be changed and risen above anyway. If they can be changed and risen above, then that means they are NOT right, so WHY have them, let alone maintain them, in the first place?

Because people are often intoxicated and zombie-like... moving in familiar patterns... not seeing what’s in front of them... for all kinds of “payoffs” and reasons... comfort, ego, ignorance, avoiding fear, etc.

So now I will ask YOU why are YOU; so often intoxicated and zombie-like, moving in familiar patterns, not seeing what is in front of YOU, mis/behaving for comfort, ego, ignorance, avoiding fear, et cetera?

WHAT are YOU not comfortable of, egotistical for, ignorant of, fearful of?

By the way I KNOW the true and right answers. If you WANT to KNOW them also, then answer the questions openly and honestly.

If you like I will give you a hint in how to get to the right and true answers quicker, simpler, and easier, that is by answering for YOU, and YOU only. Instead of looking at what others do I found looking at ONLY what i do helped Me to understand HOW and WHY ALL human beings do WHAT they do.

So, if human beings move in the direction that they seem to be heading in now, that is, they could bomb and pollute each other till there is none or at least not many left, then THAT is naturally beautiful and complete, to you?

Yes. To me it appears... It’s our learning/exploratory process, evidently. We had to try it out as one of the infinite possibilities of a creative universe.

I agree with this totally. If this is what happens, then so be it. It is just part of the ALL encompassing natural process of Consciousness or Awareness coming into Its own Self.

But would it be great if it was actually human beings who were the actually intelligent beings that Consciousness could come into being with?

What I think would be even greater is if this generation of human beings specifically were the Ones who made the evolutionary leap into being the truly Conscious One that did NOT abuse them own Self nor any thing around us.

Does that mean it doesn’t fucking break my heart? Of course it breaks my heart! But I’m trying to understand a bigger picture than the horrific drama in the mud pit, and I continually strive for ever-increasing clarity and love.

SO if it breaks your "heart", as the saying goes, and if you are TRULY TRYING to understand a bigger picture, then would you not question another person who says they KNOW how to assemble the puzzle so that they can fully see and fully understand the big picture? Would you not do this through the constant use of challenging clarifying questions of everything that is being said instead of just saying things like, "There is NO one way", "There is NO destination", et cetera.

The Truth may well be that there is NO one way and that there is NO destination, which i think is what will really be found, but your refusal to let go of these beliefs so that you can look properly into and fully question what I am actually saying, will not allow you to find out and see what I also agree with. You may just find I totally agree with these two things you say and believe here. But we will never know if you do not let go, of the believing and assuming.

I found questioning everything lead Me to being able to assemble the big picture of Life into a fully recognizable, sensible, unmuddied, clear, and fully understood picture of what Life really IS, from where it also could make sense to every human being from where it could be fully understand. A place from where real clarity and true love exist, and thus can be fully understood and seen.

Instead of continually "striving" for clarity and love, of which you do not yet KNOW how to reach nor achieve, there really is a truly quick, simple, and easy way to reach and do this. But if your past very negative experiences are going to keep stopping you from looking into and questioning that way, then so be it. Continue on striving for clarity and love as you are doing, but do not be to surprised if you will ALWAYS be looking for them. Clarity and love is right here with you, if you will just get THE CRAP OUT OF THE WAY.

Also, you seem so adamant that there is no destination, and that there is no goal, like that is an ultimate answer or truth, yet you have also expressed that there is NO point to ultimate answers nor truths.

I’m telling you how it looks from my perspective. I don’t know any ultimate truth.

Obviously you do not know of any ultimate truth. No one human being knows of any ultimate truth, or some of us might actually do know but are unable to express it yet. Some of us may just be learning how to express better, for example express succinctly that ONLY what is is that everyone agrees with is the only time when ultimate truth is know. No one human being can know any ultimate truth. Ultimate truth can only be known when ALL human beings are in agreement with what an ultimate truth actually IS.

To Me, WHAT IT IS, that we ALL agree with, IS the only ultimate truth, which obviously can change. It is only ultimate in the sense that there is no one disagreeing with it, at that particular moment.

The ONLY way that I know of that we can then KNOW, what it is, that is an ultimate Truth is to find out if there is any thing/s that we ALL do agree upon.

Okay, I need a break...

Could these minuscule writings I express here, compared to what it is that I am really trying to fully express, which you say are mammoth and that which you need a break from not actually be what you need a break from, but rather your constant refusal to change the way you are looking this be what you really need a break from?

Your refusal to stop believing in what you believe in is true may actually be what is tiring?

[ken]

Okay, I'm going to finish up my response to the mega-post now, so that I can run wildly through the woods with glee at having accomplished such a feat. And then I think I'm probably done with all of this. Whether you consider it so, this is my gift to you, Ken. I could have said a few curse words and ignored everything (which I considered doing many times).

This so called meg-post is only mega in that it is never ending, so really you have not accomplished anything yet. This is only a tiny fraction of what there really is, and you have only really attempted to respond and answer only a few questions I have posed. Are you or are you not trying to understand a bigger picture, and, are you or are you not continually striving for ever-increasing clarity and love? If so, then really this is just the beginning so you could not really be done with this ever-learning experience. If you really want to give me a true gift lacewing become more open and honest so that you can and will learn far more about the true Self. WHY did you consider cursing and ignoring? I have only really expressed the idea of remaining truly open always.

you, yourself, have written;
"There is no destination... there is no goal... there is only ongoing creation and destruction. And THAT is naturally beautiful and complete."

Writing, There is NO destination, and, there is NO goal... there is ONLY... in that kind of way, sounds like a pretty fixed "ultimate truth" expressed "for all", which is totally irrefutable.

Does this sound like some one trying to apply their own experience onto some ultimate template of truth for all?

Apparently it sounds that way to you.

Is, "There is no destination... there is no goal... there is only ongoing creation and destruction', the truth?

If so, do you believe in it wholeheartedly?

If so, then from your perspective is it the ultimate template of truth for all?

If not, then why persist with something that is not really a truth for all?

If it is only a truth for you (and a select few only), then is really a truth at all, or just what you want to believe in?

You are free to believe any "truth" that you like, but WHY do it if it may not be a truth after all?

Does this allow for any of the other of the so many variations?

Sure, why can’t everyone see it the way that makes sense to them?

I NEVER said they can not. In fact, if asked, I would say everyone does see things the way that makes sense to them. It only makes sense to do that. However, if you are the one who says, There is no destination, there is no goal, and there is only ongoing creation and destruction that sounds pretty much like you are not really allowing other people to see things that makes sense to them. To Me you seem to be proposing an ultimate truth for all.

I’m describing what makes sense to me.

Yes that is obvious. We all, in a way, doing the exact same thing. But you need to explain how and why it makes sense when asked for clarity. If you can not do that, then do not expect others to accept is as a truth. To Me, it does not make sense for an infinite ongoing creative energy to not in any possible way have a plan, goal, nor destination.

Can you explain how you got the knowledge that there is no goal nor destination for any thing whatsoever? Is it just what you think is true or do you really believe it is true?

I do not tell other people that my perspective is ultimate truth that they should abide by.

By expressing There is NO destination, et cetera, certainly tells Me that your perspective is the ultimate truth, that we should abide by. There is absolutely no give in what you are expressing.

I support people to believe whatever works for them – just as I hope they would support ME to do!

For .... sake I WILL NEVER support any person to believe (in) any thing (besides in them Self) for two reasons. My whole writings revolve around the premise that it is better to remain open to absolutely everything because if you are not open, then you are not able to learn. In a philosophy forum I would have thought that people come here to learn and become wiser, not just to express what they believe (in) is true.

How many times do I have to write I DO NOT believe or disbelieve (in) any thing, before it starts sinking in?

The other reason I will also NEVER support any person to believe (in) some thing is because some people, for instance, believe that it is all right to abuse children or other human beings because that "works for them". If you want to support people to believe whatever works for them, then so be it. But do not expect Me to.

I’ve said many times that I think that potential (and/or our awareness of it) keeps expanding, so I don’t consider my perspective as some sort of fixed, final, ultimate position forevermore. If it doesn’t make sense or offer value to you, Ken, leave it.

If you stop proposing things as ultimate truths, then I will leave it.

What you are doing certainly doing does make sense to Me. Even what you are doing subliminally, which you are unable to recognize yet, ALL makes sense to Me because I KNOW and understand WHY you are doing it before you will learn and discover WHY you do it.

Obviously some human beings can be aware of Potential before others can, those people do not propose things like, "There is NO destination", et cetera.

Do you or some people realize that if particularized thisists could or would accept/acknowledge that there is so much more than any particular thisism, then that would go against their whole particular thisist foundation/identity of "having THE ultimate answer/truth that applies to all"?

I do realize this, and I don’t think that way, and I’m really getting tired of the direction of your questions, which seem to make-up too much stuff for me to spend my energy responding to.

Or, could this tiredness be coming from not wanting to look at the truth of what I am expressing.

I’ve shared a great deal with you so that you could see where I’m coming from. If all of these questions can still be arising, I don’t see any point in continuing.

"I do not see any point in continuing", or similar, seems to be a very common response from human beings when they are being questioned about what they do and why they do it, and it is time for them to look deep within themselves.

I already understand where you and all human beings are coming from. I just wish they would be open and honest enough to see and understand that fully for themselves also.

Does any of this sound familiar or look like a reflection of 'you' because this is what you expressly wrote (with the two words changed)

Are you so intoxicated with analyzing people and finding fault-lines that you can’t actually see/hear what's being said as a complete picture?

Maybe, but maybe it is the other way around that has actually been happening here.

I do not have to analyze people. I already understand how they work. That came with understanding how the Mind and the brain work. What I am actually doing is, through questioning people here, showing and proving how the Mind and the brain works.

To form a complete picture, which ALL human beings can see and fully understand, I have to produce the evidence and proof, which is exactly what I have been doing here in this forum. This is the result of remaining completely open while I learn how to express better.

I still find it amazing that when I write replies sometimes I do it quote by quote or sentence by sentence before I read the next one, and how you somehow provide Me with answers to what I am looking for, in the very next quote.

Right. But rather than delete your question, you leave it for me to deal with when I’ve already provided more information.

Obviously if you have already answered it, then you do not need to provide any more information. But the more information you provide forms more of what I am actually achieving, that is to show how an eternal peaceful life for everyOne can easily be created. The more information you provide then the more proof and evidence of what is actually needed to be able to create this type of life for EveryOne.

This adds to the exhaustion and discouragement in responding to your posts.

That is fair enough, and totally understandable.

You also have to admit that you also want to transform this physical world into a better one, not necessarily for us two personally but for our species as a whole, and, just maybe the best way, (and dare I say it only way) is for us to learn how to communicate far better on the Spiritual level?

I’ve already said this. Why are you presenting it to me that I “have to admit”?

Because some times you propose that every thing is perfect but other times you propose that you want to transform this physical world into a better one. Either what human beings are doing is perfect or it is not. It can not be both.

You also do not appear to know how to communicate better on the Spiritual level yet. You need the know-HOW, and even after I say I have the, and, know-HOW to do it I want people to see and recognize just how much those BELIEFS are actually stopping them from wanting to learn and discover more.

I need the proof of HOW exactly human beings are not always open. I also need the proof of the beliefs they have, which is the cause of WHY they are not open. When people become open and look thoroughly throughout my writings here the evidence is everywhere, and that is why I write what I do and the way I do. When I do learn HOW to express succinctly, what it is that I want to express, then these writings here will be the evidence that my writings can be referenced to.

Repeatedly I wonder: Are the things I say somehow triggering for you some kind of defensiveness, or some kind of need to be in a “teacher” role? I really don’t know what to make of the way you talk to me and ask questions of me. It really feels to me like you’re talking to someone else.

Fair enough. There also might be a mirror reflection in there somewhere?

I think a linear path is an illusion. Rather, it seems to me that there are vast realities that can be experienced and shared from a single point.

Where and what that single point is exactly is what I have been alluding to all along.
How to get there is very simple, quick, and easily, once you have the know-HOW, and with know-HOW, or, in other words, once you know-HOW to.
Why there is a single point can be easily understood.
When we reach that single point is when we ALL get there as One, and when that is IS when we are ALL in agreement.

Fine. You want to operate from “the single point”. I think that would cease the whole purpose of the vast potential and experience that emanates from the point. You have fun with your perspective. I’ll have fun with mine.

The One single vantage point is where the One shared upon common Truth can be seen from. Of course there can be as many multiple realities and truths as there are people, but to see and understand the One ultimate Truth, which you appear to be seriously looking for, yet deny Its existence, is actually seen and understood from the single viewpoint of ALL there is. The One point from which you should only be looking from. That is from the True Self, which is Everything, as One.

Time to go celebrate...

What is it exactly that you are going to celebrate?

[Lacewing]

This so called meg-post is only mega in that it is never ending, so really you have not accomplished anything yet.

Ken, I do not know if you have not heard me or if you have not understood what I've said, but I’ve already communicated more than I normally would (and "more than enough", from my perspective) in response to the questions you keep posing. I’ve also told you that I’m done dealing with the false accusations and characterizations you keep making up about me. I think these might be a product of the first potential issue: you are not hearing or understanding me.

It has always been my nature to engage in thoughtful and open-minded communiction with people -- and I am a genuine and honest person who is attuned to self- and broader enquiry just about all the time. My decision to not carry on in this way with you is because I’m not seeing enough connection and resulting value from the effort. Rather, it’s like going in circles, and chasing things that aren’t there. (It seems more about what’s in your head.) I cannot devote myself to that. Perhaps it is experienced differently by you, and therefore has value to you.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to travel this path with you anymore because (to me) it feels too much like it’s your path rather than an equally shared path. I wish you well.