Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:

I'm not talking about a piece of meat, although sound does affect the meat.

If you're not referring to the organ by "heart," what are you referring to?

The knowing centre of knowledge, the heart of the matter.

But then you're referring to mind, so it wouldn't make sense to say, "The heart, not the mind . . ."

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:If you're not referring to the organ by "heart," what are you referring to?

The knowing centre of knowledge, the heart of the matter.

But then you're referring to mind, so it wouldn't make sense to say, "The heart, not the mind . . ."

The mind is known by the heart. That which is known does not exist.

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:
The knowing centre of knowledge, the heart of the matter.

But then you're referring to mind, so it wouldn't make sense to say, "The heart, not the mind . . ."

The mind is known by the heart. That which is known does not exist.

So you're claiming that minds do not exist.

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:But then you're referring to mind, so it wouldn't make sense to say, "The heart, not the mind . . ."

The mind is known by the heart. That which is known does not exist.

So you're claiming that minds do not exist.

Well have you ever seen a mind?

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:
The mind is known by the heart. That which is known does not exist.

So you're claiming that minds do not exist.

Well have you ever seen a mind?

Yes--I've seen brains. Minds are particular brain states.

Terrapin Station wrote: Yes--I've seen brains. Minds are particular brain states.

Who has seen a brain...who and what is the 'I' looking at the brain?

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote: Yes--I've seen brains. Minds are particular brain states.

Who has seen a brain...who and what is the 'I' looking at the brain?

"I" is a set of mental states. And again, mind is just a set of brain states.

Dontaskme wrote: Well have you ever seen a mind?

Magnetism exists yet no one has ever seen it.

Harbal wrote:

Dontaskme wrote: Well have you ever seen a mind?

Magnetism exists yet no one has ever seen it.

Yes exactly, now we are getting somewhere.

That's exactly how YOU exist. You exist but no one has ever seen YOU

You cannot see your original face, you only see your reflected face, the fictional you.

That's what nonduality is pointing to in it's message.

Everything is known by it's appearance...but what is known cannot be known by what's appearing, because what's appearing is a fiction.Existence, non-existence, things, words...none of these things can be found to be truly there in an objective way.

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:So you're claiming that minds do not exist.

Well have you ever seen a mind?

Yes--I've seen brains. Minds are particular brain states.

Well if the mind is a brain state, as seen as the brain- then who's seeing the brain states? Can that seer be seen in the brain state?

Dontaskme wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:
Well have you ever seen a mind?

Yes--I've seen brains. Minds are particular brain states.

Well if the mind is a brain state, as seen as the brain- then who's seeing the brain states? Can that seer be seen in the brain state?

What? Your question is kind of garbled grammatically.

You can observe others' brain states, in which case the answer to who is seeing it is the person third-person observing it. But also some brain states are mental states and the person whose brain it is "sees them" in the sense of that being what experiences are/what consciousness is.

Terrapin Station wrote: You can observe others' brain states, in which case the answer to who is seeing it is the person third-person observing it. But also some brain states are mental states and the person whose brain it is "sees them" in the sense of that being what experiences are/what consciousness is.

So are you saying a person can see it's own consciousness in a brain state? via an MRI image ?

Is that what the mind is, an image?

I'm assuming a person could not have direct experience of their mind and see it that way, we can't look in the brain and see consciousness within the actual organ..so the only other way is via the image.

So if the mind is an image, then who or what is looking at the image of the mind?

Dontaskme wrote:So are you saying a person can see it's own consciousness in a brain state?

Just being conscious is doing this, since what consciousness is is a set of particular brain states.

I'm assuming a person could not have direct experience of their mind and see it that way, we can't look in the brain and see consciousness within the actual organ..

You don't third-person visually observe (someone else's) consciousness experientially, because it's a first-person phenomenon.

Terrapin Station wrote:You don't third-person visually observe (someone else's) consciousness experientially, because it's a first-person phenomenon.

So the first person phenomena must be the reference point of I-ness or I am-ness.

And that is what we and everything are, there is here the zero point of observation aka this blank inane empty 'awareness' in which everything arises and falls away.

Therefore, consciousness / awareness is all there is experiencing itself. It's the direct experience of being. There's nothing else outside of that Direct experience. There's nothing actually there/here ...? it's all emptiness appearing as fullness...?

So the world of images are empty at their core essence, because they are projections of the zero point of observation. Images trigger the thought process and suddenly an image becomes a thing solid and real...thought has put those things there.
If you drop all thoughts and memories about an image…what is really there? What is the actual experience?


There are only thoughts ABOUT things, so nothing really exists. And it is only another thought that says there are thoughts thinking about other thoughts. Can thoughts think? Thoughts appear but can you find anyone/anything that is doing the thinking?

There is awareness of thought but awareness is one with the thought. Both empty. There is no individual self. All is one, which equals zero point.

Can you find anyone/anything in a thought, or is a thought just letters and words? Can a thought be confused?

All words like awareness, mind, consciousness, brain, thought... they're just empty ideas, arising here now nowhere, they are not actual real things.

Things are seen by a seerless seer. Known by an unknown knower. The world is made-up...comparable to a dream.

I'm cutting you off where the first big problem occurs:

Dontaskme wrote:So the first person phenomena must be the reference point of I-ness or I am-ness.

And that is what we and everything are,

The second sentence--"And this is what we and everything are" doesn't at all follow from the first sentence there.

Maybe you don't intend to give the impression that you believe it follows, but then you're not supporting that "'[I-ness] or [I-am-Ness]' is what we are/what everything is," and it's a ridiculous claim in lieu of support.




there is here the zero point of observation aka this blank inane empty 'awareness' in which everything arises and falls away.

Therefore, consciousness / awareness is all there is experiencing itself. It's the direct experience of being. There's nothing else outside of that Direct experience. There's nothing actually there/here ...? it's all emptiness appearing as fullness...?

So the world of images are empty at their core essence, because they are projections of the zero point of observation. Images trigger the thought process and suddenly an image becomes a thing solid and real...thought has put those things there.
If you drop all thoughts and memories about an image…what is really there? What is the actual experience?


There are only thoughts ABOUT things, so nothing really exists. And it is only another thought that says there are thoughts thinking about other thoughts. Can thoughts think? Thoughts appear but can you find anyone/anything that is doing the thinking?

There is awareness of thought but awareness is one with the thought. Both empty. There is no individual self. All is one, which equals zero point.

Can you find anyone/anything in a thought, or is a thought just letters and words? Can a thought be confused?

All words like awareness, mind, consciousness, brain, thought... they're just empty ideas, arising here now nowhere, they are not actual real things.

Things are seen by a seerless seer. Known by an unknown knower. The world is made-up...comparable to a dream.[/quote]