Please delete this

[OuterLimits]

There appears to be no experimental evidence which favors MWI over other interpretations.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/#5
Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

[sthitapragya]

2.If your life is hard and you suffer in this world, you are basically entitled for eternal hell, without having the ability to escape, because after you die in this world, you are born in another yet exact same one. Your whole life will be the same again down to every atom, and you will keep repeating the miserable life for eternity.

For this to happen, not only every single atom in your body but the entire universe, the entire galaxy, including the solar system, the planet you would be reborn in, life on that planet down to every living thing ever born on it would have to follow the exact same pattern for you to have the exact same life. The exact same earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, other major cataclysms, every single event that took place would have to be exactly the same without even the smallest variation over a time frame of the entire 13.7 billion or so years of existence of the other universe. The smallest change anywhere would produce a butterfly effect and things would change dramatically after that and even if you were born with the exact same configuration, which would itself be utterly unlikely, your life could never be the exact same. So the chances of you reliving the same life again are more likely impossible than possible.

If anyone who is good at math would be able to figure out the probability, I am pretty sure the number would be itself close to infinity.

[Noax]

If anyone who is good at math would be able to figure out the probability, I am pretty sure the number would be itself close to infinity.

10^(10^28) meters away is your nearest identical copy, give or take (Tegmark, as quoted from a Sci American article). A big number, sure, but hardly close to infinity. They once gave a prize to who could name the largest number, and what I just expressed in 10 characters would hardly make a dent in that.

Anyway, I have no idea how the existence of that identical copy constitutes me reliving my life.

[sthitapragya]

If anyone who is good at math would be able to figure out the probability, I am pretty sure the number would be itself close to infinity.

10^(10^28) meters away is your nearest identical copy, give or take (Tegmark, as quoted from a Sci American article). A big number, sure, but hardly infinity. They once gave a prize to who could name the largest number, and what I just expressed in 10 characters would hardly make a dent in that.

But I wasn't talking about just my copy. My copy and the life it has to be exactly the same would require every single event from the beginning of that particular universe up to and including the end of my life to follow the exact same pattern. I don't think the number you quoted would be correct.



"If there is an infinite number of possible histories, the fact that there is a given history (or a finite number) leading to life does not make that history probable: its probability would be 1 divided by infinity, which is zero," Alfonseca explained to Phys.org. "To have a greater-than-zero probability, you need an infinite number of approaches. But in any case, with this scenario, the number of histories would always be larger than the number of beings, so the same beings infinitely repeated would still have different histories."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-dont-infin ... s.html#jCp

Max calculates that the average distance to an identical Hubble volume would be 2^10^118 meters from us. But this is just the distance to an identical planet. For that planet to have the exact same history you would have to factor in every single event that takes place in our universe at any given time. The probability would then be a ridiculous number.

[sthitapragya]

2.If your life is hard and you suffer in this world, you are basically entitled for eternal hell, without having the ability to escape, because after you die in this world, you are born in another yet exact same one. Your whole life will be the same again down to every atom, and you will keep repeating the miserable life for eternity.

For this to happen, not only every single atom in your body but the entire universe, the entire galaxy, including the solar system, the planet you would be reborn in, life on that planet down to every living thing ever born on it would have to follow the exact same pattern for you to have the exact same life. The exact same earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, other major cataclysms, every single event that took place would have to be exactly the same without even the smallest variation over a time frame of the entire 13.7 billion or so years of existence of the other universe. The smallest change anywhere would produce a butterfly effect and things would change dramatically after that and even if you were born with the exact same configuration, which would itself be utterly unlikely, your life could never be the exact same. So the chances of you reliving the same life again are more likely impossible than possible.

If anyone who is good at math would be able to figure out the probability, I am pretty sure the number would be itself close to infinity.

''close to infinity'' yeah well but anything that is > 0 is gonna happen. If you have infinite time and space, not will anything that is infinitely close to zero exist , it will exist for eternity.

The problem with infinite universes is also that they would mean infinite histories. And if there were infinite histories the possibility of any single history or any finite number of histories actually happening would be X/infinity=0.

In fact, if there were an infinite number of universes, the probability of the existence of any finite number of universes would also be zero.

[sthitapragya]

''close to infinity'' yeah well but anything that is > 0 is gonna happen. If you have infinite time and space, not will anything that is infinitely close to zero exist , it will exist for eternity.

The problem with infinite universes is also that they would mean infinite histories. And if there were infinite histories the possibility of any single history or any finite number of histories actually happening would be X/infinity=0.

In fact, if there were an infinite number of universes, the probability of the existence of any finite number of universes would also be zero.

we are the proof that its not true...

Well, then we are also the proof that an infinite number of universes is not possible. The fact that we exist means that the probability is greater than zero which means that both universes and histories must be finite.

[Dubious]

...if so only as a 'statistic' either in this universe or some other makes NO difference since there is absolutely NO connection between YOU and one which time, nature and probability may have repeated. A 'time stamp' used once has no connection to being used an infinite number of times and always without the least reference to the last.

Furthermore, 'will we live again' begs the question whether were are NOW living again which subsumes a total blackout of any such prior event ever having occurred otherwise we wouldn't need to ask. The conclusion again is NO connection. Your final hour will indeed be your final hour no matter the endless instances of you eternity may have cloned.

[Hobbes' Choice]

we are the proof that its not true...

Well, then we are also the proof that an infinite number of universes is not possible. The fact that we exist means that the probability is greater than zero which means that both universes and histories must be finite.

the fact that we exist is proof that we can exist. What makes you think our existence isn't repeatable? Finite atoms?

It is a mathematical impossibility that the unique construction of trillions of atoms that comprise each of us could ever come together in exactly the same way after we have died, and for the right conditions of our world that could support our lives would coincide with that event.

[sthitapragya]

we are the proof that its not true...

Well, then we are also the proof that an infinite number of universes is not possible. The fact that we exist means that the probability is greater than zero which means that both universes and histories must be finite.

the fact that we exist is proof that we can exist. What makes you think our existence isnt repeatable? Finite atoms?

To an extent. But I don't know if you are conversant with the butter effect which is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state. So what you are talking about would mean that for you to exist and have the exact same life, every event at even the sub-atomic level would have to be repeated in another universe without the slightest variation of any kind whatsoever through out the whole span of that universe all the way up to your existence and beyond. Everything single thing from the moment that universe is created till the time of your death would have to be repeated exactly. Every atom in the entire universe would have to behave exactly the same way for the whole period of 13.7 billion years. The slightest change at the sub-atomic level would cause unforeseeable changes to the universe at any given time. The odds of that are simply too large if the number of universes are finite. If the number of universes are infinite then the probability of this universe existing would be zero so that is out of the question. With a finite number of universe the odds are simply unlikely.

[Noax]

But I wasn't talking about just my copy. My copy and the life it has to be exactly the same would require every single event from the beginning of that particular universe up to and including the end of my life to follow the exact same pattern. I don't think the number you quoted would be correct.

It wouldn't be a copy if the life was any different at all. The stars in the sky have to be the same. That calculation was the probability of a galaxy being in the same state as ours, and history is part of state. You still need other galaxies to be where they are, but perhaps not identical except for the singular events (supernovas, etc) about which we are aware.

Can't say I agree with the calculation since it is not made clear how many bits are needed to describe one particle, and thus the probablity of just that one particle being correct. The rest is easy if you get that first part right. No amount of finite precision will guarantee a specific future, but nobody claimed that this copy hubble sphere will remain identical with ours one minute from now.

Max calculates that the average distance to an identical Hubble volume would be 2^10^118 meters from us.

That sounds more right. I said 28, not 118, but mine was for a galaxy, not the entire volume.

But this is just the distance to an identical planet.

Hubble volume or planet? Which one?

or that planet to have the exact same history you would have to factor in every single event that takes place in our universe at any given time. The probability would then be a ridiculous number.

How could a planet be identical without an identical history? It does have memory you know.

[Noax]

The problem with infinite universes is also that they would mean infinite histories. And if there were infinite histories the possibility of any single history or any finite number of histories actually happening would be X/infinity=0.

we are the proof that its not true...

No, you'd have to find an identical one to prove it wrong. We are not a specific target history, and that is (supposed to be) a calculation of a different universe having the same history as ours.

The math is wrong there as well. X/infinity is meaningless without a definition of X.

There are infinite histories, and infinite universe candidates. So the probability of existence of another universe like ours is infinity/infinity = <undefined>. It all depends on which infinity is larger. I suspect the latter one is, and thus the probability is indeed zero, but I don't present that as proof.

And therammo: read what Dubious posted at the end of page 2. If this clone exists, what possible connection do you have to him? How are you now not reliving his life instead of the other way around? Maybe this life is your last go around. Then what?

[Noax]

My theory is more about repetition of my current life rather than connection to another of my ''copies''
As I mentioned earlier, if all the atoms and matter that is configurated in our big bang, comes in the same exact order again, somewhere in the infinite vast of multiverse, then it's basically creating us again. That translates into me and you living again.. forever, without beginning and without end. We are eternal. Now, I kindly ask anyone here in the forum to give me any logically explanation on why wouldn't we live again? We are basically a product of atoms and matter that is like a written code, and a written code can be repeated..

Sorry, I can be of no further help. You deny a connection between us and these others, yet speak as if they are us, and apparently also in succession. A life lived is a life lived, be it identical to a different one or not. There is no thing that eternally is each of them in turn. If you think there is, you need to identify it.

[Noax]

they are not us, they are copies of us.

More likely you're a copy of them.

I'm talking about our existence. I can't see how logically speaking that if we have infinity , why should there be a limitation for infinite but yet also repetitive actions?

I just don't see the transition from 'also happens elsewhere' to 'happens repetitively', a wording which implies it 1) being the same thing, and especially 2) a serialization of those specific lives. 20 toasters is 20 different but identical toasters, not a repetition of the same one over and over.

OK, perhaps you find your life sub-par for whatever reason. The infinity of the universe is good evidence that there is an infinity of others (be they identical or not, it doesn't matter) that also hold a similar opinion. Why does it matter that a finite pattern inevitably repeats in an infinite dataset? How is that worse than different lives being lived, but still with the depressed assessment?

I said I would be no more use. I'm not going to posit some objective purpose to the vastness of suffering, happiness, or whatever you want to cumulatively score.

[sthitapragya]

The problem with infinite universes is also that they would mean infinite histories. And if there were infinite histories the possibility of any single history or any finite number of histories actually happening would be X/infinity=0.

No, you'd have to find an identical one to prove it wrong. We are not a specific target history, and that is (supposed to be) a calculation of a different universe having the same history as ours.

The math is wrong there as well. X/infinity is meaningless without a definition of X.

There are infinite histories, and infinite universe candidates. So the probability of existence of another universe like ours is infinity/infinity = <undefined>. It all depends on which infinity is larger. I suspect the latter one is, and thus the probability is indeed zero, but I don't present that as proof.

And therammo: read what Dubious posted at the end of page 2. If this clone exists, what possible connection do you have to him? How are you now not reliving his life instead of the other way around? Maybe this life is your last go around. Then what?

How can the probability of another one universe like ours be infinity/ infinity? It would be 1/infinity=0. If the probability of a single universe exactly like ours is 0, how can there be an infinity of universes like ours.

[sthitapragya]

the fact that we exist is proof that we can exist. What makes you think our existence isnt repeatable? Finite atoms?

To an extent. But I don't know if you are conversant with the butter effect which is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state. So what you are talking about would mean that for you to exist and have the exact same life, every event at even the sub-atomic level would have to be repeated in another universe without the slightest variation of any kind whatsoever through out the whole span of that universe all the way up to your existence and beyond. Everything single thing from the moment that universe is created till the time of your death would have to be repeated exactly. Every atom in the entire universe would have to behave exactly the same way for the whole period of 13.7 billion years. The slightest change at the sub-atomic level would cause unforeseeable changes to the universe at any given time. The odds of that are simply too large if the number of universes are finite. If the number of universes are infinite then the probability of this universe existing would be zero so that is out of the question. With a finite number of universe the odds are simply unlikely.

I completely agree , IF we talk about anything that is finite.. however, even with the extreme low chance that every atom come in the same absolute repetition, however if infinity exists, then what makes it impossible to create same exact universe as ours, thus make our existence repetitive?

Why don't you get the simple logic that if there are an infinite number of universes, the chances of a single universe existing are 1/infinity=0? In an infinite number of universes, the chances of a single universe existing are literally zero. The chances of two universes existing are also 2/infinity=0 and so on for any finite number of universes. Even the chances of an infinite number of universes existing is infinity/infinity=undefined and not 1.