Philosophy Now Forum

thedoc wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Actually I played it when I was eleven, and not just the first movement.

My grandson is learning the guitar, and played "Ode to Joy" for my daughter's wedding, I doubt that he really understood the music more than to just play the notes. I learned the first movement of the "Moonlight Sonata" about when I turned 16 and have been playing it ever since for over 40 years. After that length of time you internalize the music, and learn to feel what the music is trying to say to you.

I first learnt it at eleven. I've played it over the years. And yes, you are right, at a young age most children are simply 'playing the notes' (some better than others of course). I would call Richards Clayderman a poor man's Liberace, and Liberace was actually a terrific pianist who sold his soul. Niether are taken seriously in the music world.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I would call Richards Clayderman a poor man's Liberace, and Liberace was actually a terrific pianist who sold his soul. Niether are taken seriously in the music world.

There are many "artists" who are not taken seriously by serious artists, but they provide a link for the average person to be introduced to serious music. One that comes to mind to me is Bob Ross, the painter, who encouraged many to try something they would never have tried before. Both my mother and daughter tried painting using his techniques, and they would never have tried without it. So if Liberace and Clayderman can convince some one to listen to music they might never have listened to, good for them.

thedoc wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I would call Richards Clayderman a poor man's Liberace, and Liberace was actually a terrific pianist who sold his soul. Niether are taken seriously in the music world.

There are many "artists" who are not taken seriously by serious artists, but they provide a link for the average person to be introduced to serious music. One that comes to mind to me is Bob Ross, the painter, who encouraged many to try something they would never have tried before. Both my mother and daughter tried painting using his techniques, and they would never have tried without it. So if Liberace and Clayderman can convince some one to listen to music they might never have listened to, good for them.

Barenboim is just as 'accessible' as Clayderman. Why listen to something inferior when you can listen to the best? I don't think people went to Liberaci's or Clayderman's concerts for the music appreciation somehow. They are/were showmen.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Barenboim is just as 'accessible' as Clayderman. Why listen to something inferior when you can listen to the best? I don't think people went to Liberaci's or Clayderman's concerts for the music appreciation somehow. They are/were showmen.

That is the problem with most people, they are put off by the attitude of superiority that some serious classical music fans have. It doesn't matter why people first go to hear Liberaci or Clayderman, if they come away wanting to hear more and better renditions of the pieces they heard. When I was in college I went to a concert of Madrigal music, when I was coming out One of my professors said, "I didn't know you like Baroque Music?", and I answered that "I didn't know either, till tonight."

thedoc wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Barenboim is just as 'accessible' as Clayderman. Why listen to something inferior when you can listen to the best? I don't think people went to Liberaci's or Clayderman's concerts for the music appreciation somehow. They are/were showmen.

That is the problem with most people, they are put off by the attitude of superiority that some serious classical music fans have. It doesn't matter why people first go to hear Liberaci or Clayderman, if they come away wanting to hear more and better renditions of the pieces they heard. When I was in college I went to a concert of Madrigal music, when I was coming out One of my professors said, "I didn't know you like Baroque Music?", and I answered that "I didn't know either, till tonight."

That's funny coming from you. And some musicians really are better than others. Nothing will change that. Some people really are more musical/artistic/knowledgable than others. I'm well aware of snobbery in the music world, and not just 'classical' (great music is great music to me). All of the arts have their share of poseurs and tossers. That doesn't alter the fact that Clayderman and Liberace are showmen first, musicians second, although Liberace really was a concert-level pianist who knew there wasn't much money in it, certainly nothing like what he made as the king of tasteless overabundance. If I had ever gone to a Liberace show it would have been for the spectacle and entertainment--the music is virtually incidental. Clayderman isn't even a half-decent pianist. He attracts old ladies, with his blonde locks and ken doll looks. I don't even know if he's still around. His 'Moonlight' is a travesty. He wouldn't go near the third movement of course.
Btw, Barenboim has studied Beethoven for decades. No one could fault his Moolight Sonata. He's also anything but a snob.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

thedoc wrote: It doesn't matter why people first go to hear Liberaci or Clayderman, if they come away wanting to hear more and better renditions of the pieces they heard. When I was in college I went to a concert of Madrigal music, when I was coming out One of my professors said, "I didn't know you like Baroque Music?", and I answered that "I didn't know either, till tonight."

That's funny coming from you.

Btw, Barenboim has studied Beethoven for decades. No one could fault his Moolight Sonata. He's also anything but a snob.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this comment - "That's funny coming from you".

BTW, I agree with the resat of your post, but I will say that Barenboim is not the only interpreter of Bethoven, and Beethoven left a lot of room for variation in the playing of the piece.

WYI, I will listen to almost any genre of music, but there are some pieces that I just don't like. I'm not like one person I worked with who said "If it ain't country, it ain't music." That is a good representation of being narrow minded.

I've listened to both versions, and I have to agree that Clayderman's rendition is not very good, it's almost as if he is sight reading, and not interpreting at all. I am currently listening to one of Barenboin's playing and he shows a lot more interpretation of the music. Mine is more like Barenboim, but a bit more difference in volume and tempo.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:The Moonlight Sonata should certainly not be any louder of faster than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXjhc8EbY4I

Beethoven was quite clear on the dynamics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wq8DzpOg8I

Terrapin Station wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:The Moonlight Sonata should certainly not be any louder of faster than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXjhc8EbY4I

Beethoven was quite clear on the dynamics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wq8DzpOg8I

Well I listened to part of it, they didn't play much of the 1st movement and none of the 2nd, did they? I'm not really a fan of metal, and this was no exception.

I do like some reinterpretations of classic music, I heard these guys preform this live in the late 60's, I was in college. There are a few others that I like as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHLDuZjX4dk

My daughter used "A Thousand Years" for her wedding march, she expressed some apprehension before it started, (pre-wedding jitters) but it all melted away as soon as she saw the groom standing waiting for her.

thedoc wrote: but I will say that Barenboim is not the only interpreter of Bethoven, and Beethoven left a lot of room for variation in the playing of the piece.

I don't think Beethoven could have been any clearer than 'adagio sostenuto' and pp. He didn't leave 'a lot of room' at all.

Terrapin Station wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:The Moonlight Sonata should certainly not be any louder of faster than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXjhc8EbY4I

Beethoven was quite clear on the dynamics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wq8DzpOg8I

Believe it or not I really like it. It's the third movement though, apart from the very beginning.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:The Moonlight Sonata should certainly not be any louder of faster than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXjhc8EbY4I

Beethoven was quite clear on the dynamics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wq8DzpOg8I

Believe it or not I really like it. It's the third movement though, apart from the very beginning.

Cool. I get a kick out of them calling it the "3rd Act" haha

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

thedoc wrote: That is the problem with most people, they are put off by the attitude of superiority that some serious classical music fans have. It doesn't matter why people first go to hear Liberaci or Clayderman, if they come away wanting to hear more and better renditions of the pieces they heard. When I was in college I went to a concert of Madrigal music, when I was coming out One of my professors said, "I didn't know you like Baroque Music?", and I answered that "I didn't know either, till tonight."

That's funny coming from you.

Why do you find this funny?