Philosophy Now Forum

FlashDangerpants wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I might despise islam and its 'values'..... Who's the 'racist'?

I'm not 'sure' I get the point of all the 'unnecessary' quote 'marks' in this thread. But either way, that is another case of asked and answered.
Other people may be bigots too, but your bigotry is not really in doubt.

Not unnecessary. An intelligent person would see the point. And if you weren't against the rape and murder of Iraqi citizens then you are a racist, bigoted, hypocritical shit.

I am on a winning streak today. Not an American, probably not PC, and I was wise enough to to oppose that repay invasion. I guess whatever racist, bigoted, hypocritical shittiness I have going on here will remain totally overshadowed by all of yours.

FlashDangerpants wrote:I am on a winning streak today. Not an American, probably not PC, and I was wise enough to to oppose that repay invasion. I guess whatever racist, bigoted, hypocritical shittiness I have going on here will remain totally overshadowed by all of yours.

'Repay' for what?
I didn't say you were American, although Americans are the only people I've ever heard blather on about 'liberty'. If the PC were against the rape of Iraq then they were awfully quiet and half-hearted about it at the time (they still are), as opposed to how noisy they now are defending islam. Guilty conscience?

Typo. Rapey.

FlashDangerpants wrote:Typo. Rapey.

Sure.

Bummer, I lost my response since you deleted the other thread.

I don't recall exactly what I said, but here's my view. I would have said something like this:

I'm against banning the "burkini," or for that matter, banning any clothing or any lack of clothing.

The problem here wouldn't be the burkini. It would be if someone is (physically) forced to wear something against their will, or physically abused because they won't wear something, etc.

Surely some people who wear burkinis have chosen to wear them. They should be allowed to.

Re people being physically forced or physically abused, we do not need to create any additional laws for that. We already have laws for it.

Ironically the beach police used to be there to assure that women wore enough clothing, to maintain "modesty".
Now it seems, even for those women who choose to cover up for sun protection or for modesty a new form of "beach police" are arising.
Surely those who freely choose to wear the "burkini" should be allowed to do so as freedom of expression or freedom of religion.
It is hard to see it as a legitimate threat to public safety or public sensibilities.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

ken wrote:

Impenitent wrote:freedom of religion is wonderful

state mandated atheism is even better

-Imp

So, another person wanting the government to mandate, punish and enforce, yet another ideology, which they themselves believe in.

When will this ever end?

Why are human beings so fixed in the idea of wanting and of "forcing" others to see and believe the exact same way they do?

Freedom of ALL religions would be great. But atheism IS just another religion.

Have enough muslims practicing their 'freedom of religion' and we won't have any FREEDOM left.

Maybe I should have wrote 'from' instead of 'of'.

Freedom 'from' ALL religions, including the religion of atheism, would be great.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I don't know why limp-wristed, passionless PC idiots bother to express an opinion at all.

Do you want to know why?

ken wrote: Freedom 'from' ALL religions, including the religion of atheism, would be great.

I knew it. You are so transparent. How ironic, the religious nut calling atheists religious.

Burkinis are in bad taste like not cleaning your fingernails before you go to a dinner party, or conversely, like wearing jewels on a soup round. If the local custom dictates that body shape be displayed, then there would be less aggressive body coverings than the burkini.

Nevertheless, a better way to stop ostentatiously aggressive religious displays is to ignore them. After all, a burkini woman is unlikely to conceal a bomb. A burqa woman or man might well be concealing bomb, so ban the burqa in France or wherever there is a Muslimist risk.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

ken wrote: Freedom 'from' ALL religions, including the religion of atheism, would be great.

I knew it. You are so transparent. How ironic, the religious nut calling atheists religious.

Why do you assume I am religious?

Show one quote of mine that would even closely lead you to make that wrong assumption.

Obviously your belief is actually doing what I have been consistently saying, i.e., believing (in) some thing, leads to making wrong assumptions, and also prevents the person from looking from the right and open perspective to be able to find and see the actual Truth.

Actually, your belief is showing you the completely wrong picture.

To Me, a 'religious person' follows an interest with great devotion, which is usually marked by a belief in that interest. For your information I do NOT have that much of an interest in some thing, which I could then actually have a belief in it. The only belief I have is in the Self's ability to do and achieve whatever it really wants to. Therefore, unlike you, I do NOT have a BELIEF, which could distort My view, and I certainly am NOT religious. I always remain open.

So, how am I supposedly 'transparent' that you supposedly can see through Me? What do you think you can see, and, why would you even think that I am religious? You have made the claim, now are you able to back it up?

There's a few great white whales who ideally would cover up on the beaches in the interests of aesthetics but I'm okay with banning of either burqa or burkini.

There is no need to pander to those who sold out for the patriarchal bargain, or who cynically pushed it in the first place in the pursuit of power. These are cultures where the support of men has been bought by powerbrokers with the promise of dominion over women. Let them adapt to more modern and progressive values. It's not as though the west asked them to come. When in Rome ...

Greta wrote:There's a few great white whales who ideally would cover up on the beaches in the interests of aesthetics but I'm okay with banning of either burqa or burkini.

There is no need to pander to those who sold out for the patriarchal bargain, or who cynically pushed it in the first place in the pursuit of power. These are cultures where the support of men has been bought by powerbrokers with the promise of dominion over women. Let them adapt to more modern and progressive values. It's not as though the west asked them to come. When in Rome ...

Would you be instantly willingly and happily volunteering to adapt to more modern and progressive values, in another country in which you wanted to or had to move to, even if that included the removal of all your clothes?

The culture you are in now is where the support of "leaders" has been bought by powerbrokers with the promise dominion over its citizens. How quickly would you, could you adjust to another more modern and progressive value culture?

Does "Let them adapt ..." mean they are given as much time as they want or need to adapt? Or, does "Let them adapt ..." mean they have to instantly adapt to the new rules and laws?

Depending on how long one as spend in one culture, and what they have experienced, will influence how quickly and how much they will want to adapt to the new culture, no matter how "more modern" and "progressive values" it may seem to some.

To Me, there is no need to for all human beings to pander to those who sold out for the governmental bargain, or who cynically pushed it in the first place in the pursuit of power. All human beings could step out of their being dominated ways and move straight into the much more modern and already progressed modern value world that exists. But I certainly do not expect of them to adapt instantly. Time is needed to learn how to adapt to a much better way of life and living. Pushing or forcing others to conform, to any certain way of life no matter how modern, is only oppressing them in another way to "your" way. Oppression is the very thing that you are also suggesting that should be getting away from.

Ken wrote to Greta, please excuse me for butting in as if Greta cannot object on her own behalf but here I go:

Would you be instantly willingly and happily volunteering to adapt to more modern and progressive values, in another country in which you wanted to or had to move to, even if that included the removal of all your clothes?

Are you perhaps a little prudish, Ken?

If you are at the naturist club that Greta and I might be about to attend, i.e. when the sun light is not too strong, you will be outstandingly obtuse if you don't remove all your textiles except for surgical dressings. Me, I happily strip when I am immersed in the culture of the hospital, or the naturist beach or country club. When in Rome, Ken, one simply does what the Romans do . I am sure Greta is not a prude and neither am I.

ken wrote:

Greta wrote:There's a few great white whales who ideally would cover up on the beaches in the interests of aesthetics but I'm okay with banning of either burqa or burkini.

There is no need to pander to those who sold out for the patriarchal bargain, or who cynically pushed it in the first place in the pursuit of power. These are cultures where the support of men has been bought by powerbrokers with the promise of dominion over women. Let them adapt to more modern and progressive values. It's not as though the west asked them to come. When in Rome ...

Would you be instantly willingly and happily volunteering to adapt to more modern and progressive values, in another country in which you wanted to or had to move to, even if that included the removal of all your clothes?

The culture you are in now is where the support of "leaders" has been bought by powerbrokers with the promise dominion over its citizens. How quickly would you, could you adjust to another more modern and progressive value culture?

Belinda was exactly right. No problem. I would do as needed to fit in, just as western women are forced to cover up in fundamentalist countries. I didn't want to dress up for work - I prefer t-shirts and shorts and playing with the garden, compost, dogs and drums. About twenty years ago I was dragged along to a nude beach by an ex boyfriend. When I first arrived I thought we'd landed on a Planet of the Apes movie set, but you get used to it quickly enough. My world did not fall in.

There appears to be a temptation on the part of some western men to buy peace with Islamic men by sacrificing women's rights, exactly the same process that saw Muslim women shift from being equal citizens for a thousand years to being oppressed minions - for the sake of an oppressive new "culture" that is decades old. The new Islam has as much depth as western reality TV - cheap and nasty.

I respect the old Islam - the real Islam - which allowed the middle east to lead the world in science and philosophy, and made adherents famous for their generosity. This new perversion of Islam barely even qualifies as "culture" and deserves neither latitude nor respect. It's simply a violent political movement. Bringing the symbols of its oppression into the heart of the west is one way of extending its reach. It's no doubt amusing and satisfying for clerics to watch the west continually wilt in the face of the unbending strength of their iron will, despite the host nations having all the ostensible power.

"Fundamentalist Islam" today is largely political bastardry using the cover of "culture" to allow the continued manipulation of the many by the few (fundamentalist clerics). Not too many have problems with legitimate Islamic requirements like observances during Ramadan.