Philosophy Now Forum

If two or more adults wanna screw, and they're related in a close way, and they don't advertise it to the world, and they do it behind closed doors, then I don't think law-makers and -enforcers can do diddly squat.

But, they gotta understand, no body wants to pay a dime to care for the pinheaded, retarded, malformed offspring that can issue from from such screwing, so those folks should do the world a favor and wear a glove for the love, a cap for the fap, take a pill for the thrill, or get cut before touching the butt.

Terrapin Station wrote:

Greta wrote:More importantly, there is a risk of predatory behaviour and exploitation being more difficult to identify and convict.

My first question would be this: what research are you basing that on? We should look at the methodology of just how they're assessing occurrence versus identification and conviction.

I simply see the good that such a relaxation of laws would do is far, far less that the potential to increase harms, especially if it includes parent/child sex.

Re: methodology 1) most sexual abuse and exploitation comes from family members 2) a change in law takes away DNA testing as a tool for convicting family-based sexual abuse. Now Dad can say the sex with his daughter was consensual. Legalising parent/child incest would result in a huge increase in family-based sexual abuse, although it wouldn't seem so because it would be legitimised.

Greta wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

Greta wrote:More importantly, there is a risk of predatory behaviour and exploitation being more difficult to identify and convict.

My first question would be this: what research are you basing that on? We should look at the methodology of just how they're assessing occurrence versus identification and conviction.

I simply see the good that such a relaxation of laws would do is far, far less that the potential to increase harms, especially if it includes parent/child sex.

Re: methodology 1) most sexual abuse and exploitation comes from family members 2) a change in law takes away DNA testing as a tool for convicting family-based sexual abuse. Now Dad can say the sex with his daughter was consensual. Legalising parent/child incest would result in a huge increase in family-based sexual abuse, although it wouldn't seem so because it would be legitimised.

First off, I asked you what research you were basing the claim "More importantly, there is a risk . . ." on. You've offered no information at all about that.

Secondly, methodology is about how a study was conducted. It's not a set of claims.

Finally, the context of the thread is consenting adults. Is that what you're talking about in your comments above?

Terrapin Station wrote:

Greta wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:My first question would be this: what research are you basing that on? We should look at the methodology of just how they're assessing occurrence versus identification and conviction.

I simply see the good that such a relaxation of laws would do is far, far less that the potential to increase harms, especially if it includes parent/child sex.

Re: methodology 1) most sexual abuse and exploitation comes from family members 2) a change in law takes away DNA testing as a tool for convicting family-based sexual abuse. Now Dad can say the sex with his daughter was consensual. Legalising parent/child incest would result in a huge increase in family-based sexual abuse, although it wouldn't seem so because it would be legitimised.

First off, I asked you what research you were basing the claim "More importantly, there is a risk . . ." on. You've offered no information at all about that.

Secondly, methodology is about how a study was conducted. It's not a set of claims.

Finally, the context of the thread is consenting adults. Is that what you're talking about in your comments above?

Sorry, I've said my bit and the issue is not important enough to me to debate possible mitigating factors regarding parents having sexual relationships with their offspring. I don't judge very much but that is really screwed up. I suspect there's be a different reaction if the article was about fathers having relationships with their newly-legal daughters or, especially, their sons.

Generally speaking, though not advisable, the vast majority of offspring from incestuous relationships are perfectly healthy. Problems only occur after extended and repeated inbreeding, or where there is already a genetic problem - which could be the case in no-related mates in any case.

According to anthropology the incest taboo has not come about because of this reason, nor is it natural. Incest has been discouraged for reasons of exogamy being a more effective way of extending family influence and economic power. Even then it have been limited to siblings but cousin marriage has often been encouraged to bolster familiarity in economic relations.

There are many cases where there is no such taboo. And as you will be aware ancient Egypt made brother and sister pairings the norm in higher society.

That is should be illegal where the risks are known is an absurd legacy of Jewish law dating back to a time when nothing at all was known about genetics.

It's a cultural thing, yet a question.
I've been to some places in South America where isolated groups of local tribes practiced what would Westerners would call incest (mostly because of very limited number of men). Yet they considered it absolutely normal, and there were nobody to tell them it was legal/illegal, since such distinction of things they did not know, and did not care for.
But you could see clear mental deformations on the tribe members, so possibly it will lead to self-extermination sooner, or later.

MatejValuch wrote:It's a cultural thing, yet a question.
I've been to some places in South America where isolated groups of local tribes practiced what would Westerners would call incest (mostly because of very limited number of men). Yet they considered it absolutely normal, and there were nobody to tell them it was legal/illegal, since such distinction of things they did not know, and did not care for.
But you could see clear mental deformations on the tribe members, so possibly it will lead to self-extermination sooner, or later.

What's a 'mental deformation'? That sounds like nonsense, and the American bigot's depiction of the 'in-bred hillbilly' is an urban myth.

When considering any particular interaction between humans, when is harm actually harm?

Of course the answer is that it's only to be decided by those that are participants in any particular interaction.

Unfortunately people really love to tell others what to do and what not to do.

As long as all those involved, come away from the interaction, unharmed in any way, happy, and glad to have been a part of it, then who is to say?

But one absolutely has to keep in mind my revision of the 'golden rule' which compensates for the problems philosophers have found contained within it. My "fundamental social axiom" is that one should always, 'treat others as they would have others treat them, to the extent that, all parties, knowingly agree, at the time."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... broad.html

I think statistically this must happen a lot more than we know. I also don't think it can be called 'incest' when the participants didn't grow up together, or even knew of each other's existence. If a brother and sister grow up in the same household, but both are adopted and not biologically related, would sex between them be incest? It seems to me the word 'incest' is more of a morally judgemental term than a scientific one.

Greta wrote: Re: methodology 1) most sexual abuse and exploitation comes from family members 2) a change in law takes away DNA testing as a tool for convicting family-based sexual abuse. Now Dad can say the sex with his daughter was consensual. Legalising parent/child incest would result in a huge increase in family-based sexual abuse, although it wouldn't seem so because it would be legitimised.

weak reasoning there

as things stand now, if adult parents and children have sex, they are both equally complicit in breaking the law - the law does not view incest by adults as one person victimizing another - but both committing a crime with the victim being society or something

Kayla wrote:

Greta wrote: Re: methodology 1) most sexual abuse and exploitation comes from family members 2) a change in law takes away DNA testing as a tool for convicting family-based sexual abuse. Now Dad can say the sex with his daughter was consensual. Legalising parent/child incest would result in a huge increase in family-based sexual abuse, although it wouldn't seem so because it would be legitimised.

weak reasoning there

as things stand now, if adult parents and children have sex, they are both equally complicit in breaking the law - the law does not view incest by adults as one person victimizing another - but both committing a crime with the victim being society or something

Not at all. Minors are not held responsible for incest, at least in regions with laws that would be considered to be contemporary.

Greta wrote: Not at all. Minors are not held responsible for incest, at least in regions with laws that would be considered to be contemporary.

did u read what i wrote?

if an adult parent and an adult child (ie 18+) have sex both are held resposible

there is no assumption in law that one party might be able to pressure the other in this case

Kayla wrote:

Greta wrote: Not at all. Minors are not held responsible for incest, at least in regions with laws that would be considered to be contemporary.

did u read what i wrote?

if an adult parent and an adult child (ie 18+) have sex both are held responsible

Do you have any examples of the law actually being enforced?

Fact is that we have no way of telling how man times this happens, as the participants are unlikely to confess to an act done in private.
I know of at least one example where no prosecution was made, and this was a father and daughters. The artist Eric Gill.

Despite being above the age of consent it is unlikely I think that the 'girls' did not feel under compulsion as they were dependant on their father for their security.

FYI

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol ... 6b92830f8d

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Do you have any examples of the law actually being enforced?

did you read the first item in this thread