Philosophy Now Forum

I see a lot of automatic and mechanistic behaviours in myself and others, but who knows what lies behind our differences? I don't doubt a chain of causal events behind many of our peccadilloes, but I do doubt only that there was only one possible chain of causal events.

Dave Mangnall wrote:Hi, to any one who reads this. I have a general interest in Philosophy but my particular passion is Determinism. For many years I have believed that Free Will is an illusion, and that the rejection of that illusion is the most tremendously liberating experience. And in all those many years, I've never met a single soul who agrees with me. Is there anybody out there?

No, you're not.

Dave Mangnall wrote:Hi, to any one who reads this. I have a general interest in Philosophy but my particular passion is Determinism. For many years I have believed that Free Will is an illusion, and that the rejection of that illusion is the most tremendously liberating experience. And in all those many years, I've never met a single soul who agrees with me. Is there anybody out there?

Of course rejection of free will is liberating. You don't have to accept responsibility for yourself then. Sounds like most of humanity.

Impenitent wrote:I was a detourminist once, but I got around it...

-Imp

Camus lost his life because of his detourminism.

Welcome to Determinist's Anonymous (DetermAnon) 'Dave', where free will is just twelve steps away. And you'll be happy to know you've already made your first step to recovery, by admitting you are powerless against determinism.

Immanuel Can wrote:

henry quirk wrote:Hey, Dave...welcome.

"the rejection of that illusion is the most tremendously liberating experience"

How can that be? If determinism is right (and I don't think it is), then that sense of liberation is as much an illusion as the sense of self-direction that informs free will (or agency).

If determinism is right, all you can really say is 'the illusion of rejecting an illusion feels liberating, but is itself just a determined event'. Of course, if determinism is right then you really got no say in what you say at all...

Yep, that would be true, Henry. Good point.

I was having an argument with a Determinist once. He was trying to make his case that I should join him in his lunacy. So I said to him, "I'm sorry; I just can't believe you: you see, I was predetermined not to be able to."

He didn't know what to say, and gave up.

The answer is easy enough. God made me so that I think you are a damn fool for believing in Free Will.

Dalek Prime wrote:

Impenitent wrote:I was a detourminist once, but I got around it...

-Imp

Camus lost his life because of his detourminism.

No one know how Camus died.

Impenitent, you should say, "I was a determinist once, but then I decided against it."

Hobbes' Choice wrote: The answer is easy enough. God made me so that I think you are a damn fool for believing in Free Will.

I thought you were an Atheist, Hobbes. So you should have said, "Material forces made IC as he is, whatever that is."

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

Impenitent wrote:I was a detourminist once, but I got around it...

-Imp

Camus lost his life because of his detourminism.

No one know how Camus died.

Actually, he died in a car crash. He had a train ticket, and a friend offered him a ride instead, which he accepted. Hence the 'detour'.

Dalek Prime wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote: Camus lost his life because of his detourminism.

No one know how Camus died.

Actually, he died in a car crash. He had a train ticket, and a friend offered him a ride instead, which he accepted. Hence the 'detour'.

Ah, grim wit!

Was he on his way to a rock concert?

Heh, heh.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
No one know how Camus died.

Actually, he died in a car crash. He had a train ticket, and a friend offered him a ride instead, which he accepted. Hence the 'detour'.

Ah, grim wit!

Was he on his way to a rock concert?

Heh, heh.

I would say 'Moody Blues', but they weren't there at the time.

Dalek Prime wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote: Actually, he died in a car crash. He had a train ticket, and a friend offered him a ride instead, which he accepted. Hence the 'detour'.

Ah, grim wit!

Was he on his way to a rock concert?

Heh, heh.

I would say 'Moody Blues', but they weren't there at the time.

Oh, well said.

Moody and blue indeed.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:
Ah, grim wit!

Was he on his way to a rock concert?

Heh, heh.

I would say 'Moody Blues', but they weren't there at the time.

Oh, well said.

Moody and blue indeed.

In an absurd world, it makes sense to poke fun at my 'mother' philosophy.

henry quirk wrote:Hey, Dave...welcome.

"the rejection of that illusion is the most tremendously liberating experience"

How can that be? If determinism is right (and I don't think it is), then that sense of liberation is as much an illusion as the sense of self-direction that informs free will (or agency).

If determinism is right, all you can really say is 'the illusion of rejecting an illusion feels liberating, but is itself just a determined event'. Of course, if determinism is right then you really got no say in what you say at all...

Wow! I’d imagined that my little self-introduction would be completely ignored. As Dalek Prime might say, stripped of expletives, “Who cares?” I’m gratified to be wrong.
The reason determinism is liberating is that it takes the strain out of decision making. No longer is decision-making linked to a burdensome freedom, as wonderfully illustrated by Peter Pullen’s cartoon on page 7 of the magazine’s Existentialism issue. I know that in time I’m going to find out what I find myself doing. The decision will come to me,
You’re right to point out that “rejecting an illusion” is an inappropriate formulation. I should have said that the dissipation of the illusion was liberating.
Sometimes I do operate in actor / spectator mode, much as described by Duszek. But I harbour no hostile intent towards my mother-in-law! And it sounds as though Duszek takes the standard view that a professed belief in determinism is a disingenuous posturing taken for the purpose of self-exculpation.