Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing wrote:Harbal... what is happening to your shrinking avatar? Are you feeling a gravitational pull from somewhere else? .

I see what you mean. I hope I'm not being phased out.

Harbal wrote: I see what you mean. I hope I'm not being phased out.

Okay, this is getting scary. Am I imagining things, or has it gotten even smaller? It's like that episode "Remember Me" of Star Trek NG where Dr. Crusher's universe bubble was shrinking and, bit by bit, parts of the Enterprise were ceasing to exist. She had to keep running to different decks to escape the ones that were disappearing! Creepy! Send us a sign if you need help, Harbal.

Lacewing wrote:

Harbal wrote: I see what you mean. I hope I'm not being phased out.

Okay, this is getting scary. Am I imagining things, or has it gotten even smaller? It's like that episode "Remember Me" of Star Trek NG where Dr. Crusher's universe bubble was shrinking and, bit by bit, parts of the Enterprise were ceasing to exist. She had to keep running to different decks to escape the ones that were disappearing! Creepy! Send us a sign if you need help, Harbal.

Indeed -- But if you think that is scary, think about how an advanced species of alien life might look upon Man in the
21st Century and find that they would get on a philosophy forum to debate Atheism vs. Theism They would not consider such a species as being intelligent - not worthy of the future - some say they {the aliens} come from the future - time is not linear as it appears here.

But some of us here are gamblers - trying to predict and create the future. The old philosophical paradigms are played out
- time for a New Dawn. a new mind set for tomorrow - Time to end the old hard edge mind set of the past and open other dimensions of time and space - let those alien UFOs and their occupants show us how it is done.........

Tell us about the biological experiment of sex, genetics and evolution - And why, after all the calculations had been made
they could not stop the universe from imploding back upon itself - And biological life became the last hope for the future.

But you can take off your tinfoil caps and put on the gold ones - WE are miners of the mind - we want the best of your imagination for our universe {and now yours} to expand into the future..........


“I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
― Albert Einstein

“Yes: I am a dreamer. For a dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world.”
― Oscar Wilde, The Critic as Artist

“I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge. That myth is more potent than history. That dreams are more powerful than facts. That hope always triumphs over experience. That laughter is the only cure for grief. And I believe that love is stronger than death.”
― Robert Fulghum, All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten

“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions.”
― Albert Einstein


THE LIMITS OF PHILOSOPHICAL KNOWLEDGE

For a real philosopher there are no limits
-UniversalAlien {aka: AlienView}

"Operation New Dawn - The Beginning of the Future......."







"SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE"
'ONLY THE FUTURE EXISTS'
http://universalspacealienpeoplesassoci ... xists.html

Now Human let us get back to this ridiculous proposition:

THE LIMITS OF PHILOSOPHICAL KNOWLEDGE

Can you as a Human, possessing a Human mind, limited as it may be to you - tell us that you can place limits on knowledge

Call it philosophical if you want - it gives it a kind of higher justification in your psyche -- But the same problem exists
- You are proposing that knowledge has limits - And we do not understand limits - do you

And unless you can set and define boundaries to your mind and our universe - You will go with our philosophy
- The philosophy of an unlimited universe in an unlimited future

“Man is something that shall be overcome.Man is a rope,tied between beast and overman - a rope over an abyss.What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

“Plato was a bore.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

“As long as you still experience the stars as something "above you", you lack the eye of knowledge.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

“You say, it's dark. And in truth, I did place a cloud before your sun. But do you not see how the edges of the cloud are already glowing and turning light.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche



Operation New Dawn - The Beginning of the Future.......


"SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE"
http://universalspacealienpeoplesassoci ... uture.html

Lacewing wrote:I have asked you all kinds of questions related to your STATEMENTS, and you haven't answered any of them

Oh, I think I remember you vaguely, you have a good paid job, but say weird things.

I believe that I've answered all of your questions to the best of my ability, but if you ask silly questions I will answer accordingly.

Harbal wrote:

HexHammer wrote:Did I say ..."I"?

You said "we", implying that you were involved.

You misunderstand, it's human kind as of such, not ME in that.

UniversalAlien wrote: think about how an advanced species of alien life might look upon Man in the 21st Century and find that they would get on a philosophy forum to debate Atheism vs. Theism They would not consider such a species as being intelligent - not worthy of the future - some say they {the aliens} come from the future - time is not linear as it appears here.

Okay, some questions...

How can there be a "future" if time is not linear? By the way, I don't think it's completely/exclusively linear either... but, as with all things human, being perceived as linear defines boundaries and paths within which to bump around in these particular forms.

Wouldn't more "advanced" aliens understand EXACTLY why we humans are what we are... and do what we do? If they are surprised by us, then I think that reveals limitations that such aliens have too. They might look on us as barbarians... and not want to interact with us in general. But some might want to venture in and try to connect with those who possibly operate on more frequencies... even if only in our dreams. (I've had many dreams of flying between and around planets without a spaceship -- and of interacting with (and sometimes being chased by) many different "aliens", most of whom are as dominating and destructive and limited (in their own ways) as humans are. The strength reflected and demonstrated in those dreams belongs to SPIRIT.)

Are humans an experiment? I don't think so. Much too predictable!! I think we are simply one tiny manifestation of infinite creative energy... that comes and goes like tides. Right now we are washing up on the beach of Earth... in these forms. But this is not who we are... and we are not a we.

I get this image of a young tadpole, squirming just beyond the edge of the water... nearing death. And some being who can see what's going on, scoops up the tadpole and puts it back into the water. The being understands the struggle. There is no desire to change the tadpole, and no judgment about what the tadpole is. It's all just interaction within this amazing explosion of manifestations and vibrations. Interactions and awareness can be kind and loving and accepting... even if sometimes we play rough and swear. Such beings (aliens, or inter-dimensional, or otherwise) are the only beings that I would want to meet -- because if there's an abundance of ego and separatism involved, then I think it's just more of the same in different suits and with better tools and transportation.

Our experience within this physical realm IS limited... it's just part of the human package. The best we can hope/strive for (perhaps) is to NOT lock ourselves down even more than physical reality already does. We all seem to have natural transmitters and receivers that function seemingly beyond the visible and physical. So it would appear that we don't really have to be locked in a closet with our ego. We can be open to seeing and exploring from continually expanded viewpoints... no need to prove ourselves to ourselves or anyone else... and no need to seek places to lock down or preach about. A process of flowing... rather than seeking/defining an end.

I'm completely guessing... because I'm functioning within human limits too, and I have no clue of what really is. I can only try to see and consider as much as possible to expand my logic... and it will still be limited. I'm okay with that. I accept all of this. I think that "advanced" aliens would too. Any struggle between forms is a superficial display of limitations. Connection has no desire or use for conflict.

HexHammer wrote: Oh, I think I remember you vaguely, you have a good paid job, but say weird things.

That's okay, Hex... just go back to your nap now.

HexHammer wrote: I believe that I've answered all of your questions to the best of my ability...

Yes, I see... not answering is the best of your ability. Okay then, carry on.

Quoting Lacewing:

Okay, some questions...

How can there be a "future" if time is not linear? By the way, I don't think it's completely/exclusively linear either... but, as with all things human, being perceived as linear defines boundaries and paths within which to bump around in these particular forms.

Wouldn't more "advanced" aliens understand EXACTLY why we humans are what we are... and do what we do? If they are surprised by us, then I think that reveals limitations that such aliens have too. They might look on us as barbarians...

Let your UniversalAlien representative address your concerns.......

Sure it is necessary to use linear time for practicality and measurement when dealing with the local universe and its reality.
Just undersatnd that reality, used by Man, is an isolated phenomenon - And if Man uses only it, isolates himself from the greater world, the larger universe.

And when you say "Wouldn't more "advanced" aliens understand EXACTLY why we humans are what we are... and do what we do?"
- Here is a case when all your great minds {philosophers, scientists} are staring at the obvious and become confused.....
like still debating theistic vs. atheistic reference frames because they can not understand why they {Humans] exist and are proceeding from what is accurately perceived as Evolution - EVOLUTION based on sex and genetics - Do you really think in your wildest imagination that a single cell life form, even granting it could occur under the right circumstances from inorganic matter and become life.........could then by some fluke of random chance split into two sexes and then engage in genetic mixing Like to gamble? One day when your computers become really advanced ask them the question - What are the odds of cellular evolution from one cell leading to sexual reproduction and deliberate genetic experimentation by accident - The odds are not calculable - as it would never happen by accident. And if not by accident should I suddenly become a theist and say the god is playing with us? - some will still, because they like to think that way, But some of you want the more probable answer - Aliens, and no they don't know exactly why Man is the way he is - part of the experiment is to find out. Alien species may turn out to be very different from biologicals - more like advanced AI type intelligences, creatures of precision logic - but missing the sense of the biological - We are what the aliens are missing - another dimension, a sense of 'feelings' - another way to perceive - That is why they infused inorganic mater with life and began Evoulution and the 'Organic EXperiment'.



“We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos





"SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE"
http://universalspacealienpeoplesassoci ... uture.html

UniversalAlien wrote: Let your UniversalAlien representative address your concerns.......

Okay, thanks. Hopefully you know what you're talking about.

UniversalAlien wrote: ...reality, used by Man, is an isolated phenomenon - And if Man uses only it, isolates himself from the greater world, the larger universe.

I totally agree.

Now, when you talk about the unlikelihood of natural cellular evolution, I think you're just talking about the physical mechanics of it... and I think there is so much more going on than that. Clearly we are not just physical beings. There are other connective and transformative elements within and without us. If aliens created us and are watching to see what happens, then the experiment is bigger than they could have imagined, and we will become their gods. All of nature and creation (at least to the degree that I'm able to perceive) is just too phenomenal to ignore or downplay. Like a great cosmic swirling that stirs elements and energies that we cannot even fathom in an artistic expansive dance. I simply cannot imagine why it makes any sense that it would be limited to any one scenario... no matter how impressive or fantastic of a scenario someone comes up with. It must surely be beyond words, ego, need, emotion, calculation, fear, judgment, and agenda of anyone or anything.

Lacewing wrote:

UniversalAlien wrote: Let your UniversalAlien representative address your concerns.......

Okay, thanks. Hopefully you know what you're talking about.

UniversalAlien wrote: ...reality, used by Man, is an isolated phenomenon - And if Man uses only it, isolates himself from the greater world, the larger universe.

I totally agree.

Now, when you talk about the unlikelihood of natural cellular evolution, I think you're just talking about the physical mechanics of it... and I think there is so much more going on than that. Clearly we are not just physical beings. There are other connective and transformative elements within and without us. If aliens created us and are watching to see what happens, then the experiment is bigger than they could have imagined, and we will become their gods. All of nature and creation (at least to the degree that I'm able to perceive) is just too phenomenal to ignore or downplay. Like a great cosmic swirling that stirs elements and energies that we cannot even fathom in an artistic expansive dance. I simply cannot imagine why it makes any sense that it would be limited to any one scenario... no matter how impressive or fantastic of a scenario someone comes up with. It must surely be beyond words, ego, need, emotion, calculation, fear, judgment, and agenda of anyone or anything.

That is a big part of the whole experiment - When you reach the limits of what is known, the edge of the universe, of existence itself - You want more - limits must be surpassed for existence to continue - If a moment was ever reached where you could calculate all that is - it would end - existence and the universe would implode.

Biological life and the genetic experiment gives us the advantage of allowing for the induction of a continuous number of variables into the matrix of existence.- The universe can continue.......





"SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE"
http://universalspacealienpeoplesassoci ... uture.html

UniversalAlien wrote: That is a big part of the whole experiment .../... Biological life and the genetic experiment gives us the advantage of allowing for the induction of a continuous number of variables into the matrix of existence.- The universe can continue.......

So you are claiming that we are a biological life experiment of some superior alien species which happens to inhabit this universe too? And you (surprise) just happen to be somehow aware of this in a way that other people are not? Gee... how many different variations of this theme can there be? How many people on this forum have claimed to be associated with something superior to humans... so they could tell all the rest of us: what we are and how it is? It never makes any sense. No offense (truly)... but it's never NOTABLY brilliant people making these claims. So then one has to ask, why would superior forces use questionable people and dingdongs to deliver/interpret a message? That would mean that the supposed superior forces were dingdongs -- but it seems much more likely that all of it is made up by the messenger.

After all, why would humans need to go/travel/contemplate anywhere ELSE to glimpse the brilliance of who we are and what we are part of? Why would we need someone else to be our messengers and interpreters, for that which we are also connected to and capable of being informed about? We're not all idiots. There are a lot of brilliant people on this planet. So then what's really interesting to ask is: why does it often seem that the messengers are resisting being part of humanity and wanting to stand above it? Ideas of separation, and hierarchies of importance, seem like very human ideas... and rather primitive. Connecting into the matrix of existence (to use your phrasing) should be as simple as accessing what we're EACH already plugged into and sustained by... and there are many, many, many people who have been doing this in very open-minded ways, and coming away with a broad range of phenomenal insights. It seems LOGICAL to conclude that the universe IS that BIG... and can be experienced and viewed from many perspectives... rather than all of these people getting it completely wrong, and only a few people (who always disagree with each other) knowing some ultimate truth. That makes no sense.

Lacewing wrote:I like the way you described types of truths.

Thank you. I wish I could take credit for it, but it's fairly standard epistemology.

Lacewing wrote:Perhaps there are also truths based on perspective/perception too?

Well, since the publication of Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, there has been a growing consensus, fiercely resisted by some, that there is a sociological element to 'truth'. There are precedents for this, for instance J.S.Mill:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-knowledge-social/ wrote:Mill's arguments occur in his well-known political essay On Liberty, (Mill 1859) rather than in the context of his logical and methodological writings, but he makes it clear that they are to apply to any kind of knowledge or truth claim. Mill argues from the fallibility of human knowers to the necessity of unobstructed opportunity for and practice of the critical discussion of ideas. Only such critical discussion can assure us of the justifiability of the (true) beliefs we do have and can help us avoid falsity or the partiality of belief or opinion framed in the context of just one point of view. Critical interaction maintains the freshness of our reasons and is instrumental in the improvement of both the content and the reasons of our beliefs. The achievement of knowledge, then, is a social or collective, not an individual, matter.

Lacewing wrote:Something that can be seen from one angle, and not from another. Which is why people see such different realities and "truths"? And which leads me to ask, what makes a "truth" true?

The same article quotes C.S.Peirce:
“The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate is what we mean by truth, and the object represented is the real.”
So, yes, it is accepted by some philosophers that as well as necessary, analytic and contingent truths, there are things that certain groups agree are true, these come under the umbrella term conventionalism.
Another way to look at it is relativistically. For example, the question 'Does Betelgeuse exists?' might depend on where you are standing. From our point of view, the answer is yes; it's the left shoulder of Orion. It is also a red super giant, if it were our sun, we would be toast as it would extend beyond the asteroid belt. It's going to blow and for all we know, already has; so to someone closer, Betelgeuse may not exist. But then, if they are much closer, neither do they anymore.

Lacewing wrote:........
NOTHING for the sake of argument - A very Human trait - debate for its own sake - criticize the messenger to stop debate
- Why does the Human mind often fear the creative unless it is pure fiction And how many Human minds are capable of
accepting more than a myopic view of a reality they do not understand

These narrow minds like to know about "THE LIMITS OF PHILOSOPHICAL KNOWLEDGE" - But I can no more see limits of
philosophical knowledge than I can see limits to the universe - What are these limits

I like the alien persona I often use - an attempt to see the world as others who are not contaminated by the flaws in the Human psyche that prevents Human Evolution from progressing - a draw back to man's primitive roots. Others of us who believe in progressive Evolution want to down play the primitive and see the Hypothetical New Dawn of the future as part of
a process of intelligence - And intelligence is no accident



“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein

uwot wrote: (Mill 1859) "Critical interaction maintains the freshness of our reasons and is instrumental in the improvement of both the content and the reasons of our beliefs. The achievement of knowledge, then, is a social or collective, not an individual, matter."

Yes! It's so exciting just to see that spoken and acknowledged. And (to my way of thinking) because life is continually evolving and expanding, so then would content and reasons and logic. This idea that "truth" stands still... that clever men "find" it and then possess it and dole it out as they see fit... is just so odd. It can feel scary perhaps for gravity beings not to cling to things... but to let go (into what we're already safely a part of) and keep moving throughout it is freedom and expansion. Then clinging can be seen for the limiting factor that it is, and that's the really scary place to be. (That's how it looks from my perspective, anyway.)