Philosophy Now Forum

I am an existential nihilist and relative moralist. There is no objective meaning to life because every
thing that is born shall also die. Now you can find meaning within your own life but this is something
completely different. Morality is subjective and so cannot be absolute. And it evolves over time also
And which is why using the morals of the present to judge the actions of the past is simply fallacious

surreptitious57 wrote:...There is no objective meaning to life because every
thing that is born shall also die. ...

Isn't this a type of objective meaning?

Arising_uk wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:...There is no objective meaning to life because every
thing that is born shall also die. ...

Isn't this a type of objective meaning?

It's actually a complete non sequitur.

Hobbes' Choice wrote: It's actually a complete non sequitur.

Correct. The adjective "objective" cannot be used as a modifier for the noun "meaning".

Obvious Leo wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote: It's actually a complete non sequitur.

Correct. The adjective "objective" cannot be used as a modifier for the noun "meaning".

Interesting, but not what I meant.

I meant something cannot be denied the status 'objective' because of mortality, as in "There is no objective meaning to life because everything that is born shall also die ."
If things were immortal, does not mean objectivity is any more secure.

In practice "objective meaning" is what the majority say it is so "fuck your (subjective) opinion and/or experience". It's the socially agreed and arbitrary measure of things. Thus if the "received wisdom" says the meaning of life is standing on your head in polka-dot underpants, then that is ipso facto the objective meaning of life.
But then, as you will agree, the majority have no respect for language or it's meaning.

Hobbes' Choice wrote: In practice "objective meaning" is what the majority say it is

In practice this is indeed the case. However the quality of debate in philosophy always hinges on the precision of language and this is an incorrect usage of the word "objective". A more appropriate adjective to describe such a majority consensus in this context would be "inter-subjective". This is more than simply a matter of gratuitous pedantry to a Kantian, to whom the notion of an objective truth is illusory.

Obvious Leo wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote: In practice "objective meaning" is what the majority say it is

In practice this is indeed the case. However the quality of debate in philosophy always hinges on the precision of language and this is an incorrect usage of the word "objective". A more appropriate adjective to describe such a majority consensus in this context would be "inter-subjective". This is more than simply a matter of gratuitous pedantry to a Kantian, to whom the notion of an objective truth is illusory.

Intersubjective, sure. So what is objectivity if not that?

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Intersubjective, sure. So what is objectivity if not that?

Objectivity is a Platonist illusion. We may safely assume that there is such a thing as an "objectively real" world "out there" but we can draw no conclusions about the nature of such a world without first passing it through the filter of human consciousness and processed it in accordance with all of the a priori premises which we have already adopted about its nature. This is an unavoidable fact about the nature of knowledge which can never be overcome, even in principle.

Obvious Leo wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Intersubjective, sure. So what is objectivity if not that?

Objectivity is a Platonist illusion. We may safely assume that there is such a thing as an "objectively real" world "out there" but we can draw no conclusions about the nature of such a world without first passing it through the filter of human consciousness and processed it in accordance with all of the a priori premises which we have already adopted about its nature. This is an unavoidable fact about the nature of knowledge which can never be overcome, even in principle.

i.e. Intersubjectivity IS objectivity IS intersubjectivity.

I tend to take the view that a word in common usage needs to be understood from its limits, and unpacked for that. And when we understand the our entire knowledge base is limited to a human metric then the idea that there is an "objective reality" is a queer enough idea, but not conceivable, a sort of home for all those Kantian things-in-themselves.
Yet the idea of being objective, although faulty in conception by most, is still a useful idea in terms of science when it is used as a relation of ideas, rather than as a lofty concept of morals or pretended impartiality (which is impossible).
Thus reaching for objectiveness is part and parcel of everyday life.
Next time you think you have lost weight, and decide to go for that feast, get on the scales first. Or when you want to buy that new TV that you just know will fit into the space on the shelf, get a fucking tape measure.

Obvious Leo wrote:
The adjective objective cannot be used as a modifier for the noun meaning

This is correct because meaning is subjective by definition and something which is subjective cannot be objective too
And there is no objective meaning to life since it is entirely superfluous to requirement in the grand scheme of things

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Much ethical error results from holding false beliefs, such as that "I am morally superior to you" and
"Violence, or the threat of it, gets us somewhere (that we want to go), it's in our best interest."

In "A Unified Theory of Ethics" on p. 18,
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/A%20UNI ... ETHICS.pdf
I listed and explained some of the ethical fallacies.

To avoid Ethical Nihilism, Absurdism, Emotivism, Moral relativism, the notion that might makes right, the assertion of Power, Arrogance, etc. I shall, in the posts that follow, speak about wise human relations, social interaction, relatively-trouble-free living, and cool guidelines for a flourishing life. I shall do this without mentioning the concepts "morality" or "ethics."

The following remarks, in the form of a 'how-to' manual, is to be taken as a whole, as a package, in order to be grasped. So, if you want to understand it, read the whole thing, i.e., the subsequent posts:

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Successful living: How to have a Quality Life


Here is a fact about human nature: our brains are prewired
to seek out what is in our self-interest. The problem is that
we often don’t know what actually is in our self-interest. For
example, we fail to gain the benefits that cooperation would
yield for us.

Science informs us that we survived as a species (instead of
becoming extinct as so many, many other species have)
because we learned to cooperate on projects that we could
not handle alone. We set a goal to erect a bridge across a
river or to build a residence and we realized that the project
was too big to do by ourselves so we enlisted the
cooperation of others and we got it done. There are benefits
to cooperation. Many of us are not aware of these benefits;
we thus often do things that are not in our true self-interest.
It is a moral truth that today we need more cooperation on
worthwhile goals that enhance the quality of human life.

Successful living is concerned with how to live a good life,
how to be a good person, how to live the optimal life, how to
live well and live happy, as we provide a Quality Life for all.
When we engage in self-defeating and counter-productive
behavior we are doing things that are not in our self-interest. (1)

Examples of such conduct would be violence, self-mutilation,
ruthless exploitation (such as holding slaves, or murder, or
rape, or even disregarding worker safety standards.)
Cheating others, baiting and switching, engaging in angry
quarreling, polluting the planet which we all inhabit - these
are also forms of conduct that violates a happy life.

A life of real success would include harmonious human
relationships, and this report shall explain how to achieve
them. Logical deductions can be made from the basic
assumptions which we shall soon present. These premises
normal people usually find to be reasonable and acceptable.
Most folks who try it out find that it all makes good sense.

What are the basic assumptions? Some values are more
valuable than others. How can we tell the better from the
worse?

It has been shown by a logical demonstration, by a proof
discovered by a genius, that one individual, having
individuality, seen as ‘unique,’ is worth more than all the
things in this world, and that one material thing is worth
more than all the babble, the theories and systems and
ideologies. A person is worth more than a thing, and a thing
is worth more than a number. As we know, a thing can rust
out and be discarded as trash; and a number can be erased.
Human life, though, is never trash; it is valuable, uncountably
valuable. That’s why it is wrong to murder or rape, or to
connive and exploit, to enslave and deceive.

Those who understand these relationships can be said to
“know their values.” Once you know the theory and practice
of successful living – once you know your values - you will
put people first. Then far below you will rank materialism
and ostentatious consumption. And you will also realize that
systems, dogmas, opinions rather than facts and evidence,
isms, labels, and stereotypes have the lowest positive value
to us.

Indifference to one another has zero value, while cruelty,
sadism, personal corruption, and sociopathy have negative
value; they are dis-values. Sociopaths commit disvalues.
We don’t need more sociopaths. Selfishness is the opposite
of living successfully, of living the quality life – the god life.
Selfishness is worth less than zero. In this way we can tell
better from worse.

The happy principles we offer in this report are not rules or
commands; they are not absolutes. Instead, they are
guidelines to living a trouble-free life, a smooth balanced
harmonious life – an honest life, a life of humility and
serenity, of peace of mind and peace in the world – a life of
justice. The world is not fair but each of us can engage in
fair-dealing: we can resolve not to cheat our fellow-man, not
to cut corners, not to have fun at the expense of others, not
to ‘put people down.’ It helps to know our Quality Life
values.

Therefore I shall soon present some of the initial basic
assumptions. Picture this: If you think you are alone on an
island then all you need to be concerned about are the Laws
of Nature: you don’t want to hurt yourself. If however it
turns out that you encounter another individual on that
island the laws of human nature come into play. “I don’t
want to hurt myself” becomes: “I won’t do to anyone what I
don’t want them to do to me. I will strive to do no harm !”

If you have enough cognitive assets (enough sense) you will
be respectful, show some consideration, and radiate good will, seek the benefits of cooperation, encourage sharing. {“To
do otherwise with this party I just encountered is to risk
making an enemy who might fight me over the resources
available on the island. I’d better show him that my attitude
is that we’re both better off if we work together.”}

Due to your awareness of the principles of successful living,
in as many ways as you can you will want to make everyone
concerned, all parties, a mutual winner. You will be careful
to avoid selfishness. You will do random acts of kindness
and express deliberate feelings of compassion and empathy.
You will strive for clear, accurate, adult communication. You
will neither act superior nor play the victim. Furthermore
you’ll be mindful that your biases can become liabilities.
One has a liability when one confronts another and shows
disrespect. This lessens the chances of your living a happy
life, one of high quality.

Here are some of the underlying assumptions, the premises,
and a few of the implications that follow from them: You
begin to build a quality life for yourself when you regard each
individual, or a group of them, as deep, complex, as having a
story to tell. And when a situation arises where there is
interaction with another person, as a result of understanding
these concepts, you seek to add value to that situation; you
give that person your attention, you show that you care. For
the fact is that successful living is about caring and sharing,
and offering a helping hand to those less fortunate, or to
those in need.

In every situation that comes up you will seek to make things
better. This implies that it is good sense to: “Make yourself
better!” You will work on self-improvement. You’ll be mindful that it is worthwhile to pursue self-development. And in this way you will grow in self-understanding.


Did you know that we have a moral obligation to be good and to be happy. To be good, morally, is to have a good character. This is a big subject, and more will be said about this later.

How can we sum up in one short phrase the idea of being
true to yourself? When you are true to your own true self
you have authenticity, integrity, and honesty. Let’s speak of
it as “being real.”

Being real implies living up to what you believe and not
having double standards, one for yourself and one for
others. It includes having high ideals (moral principles) and
having your conduct correspond with those ideals. Some of
us will do this consciously at first, until we make a habit of it,
and some of us do it already intuitively.

Being real is a matter of degree and a person who knows
how to live successfully will want to gain a high degree
of this personal quality. It amounts to an increasing
correspondence with an improving self-image.

All components of a Quality Life fit together in a pattern, like
the solution of a puzzle. Once you get on the right track your
logical thinking will enable you to find the balanced pattern,
the web of life and human relationships.

With this new knowledge put into practice by enough of us
who learn these points, our relations with one another will
markedly improve. There will be less heated quarrels, more
anger management, more harmony, and more peace of mind.
Families will know how to be functional rather than
dysfunctional. Members of the family will defer to one
another, will show respect. Our lives, due to this new insight on the principles of successful living, will be safer, more efficient, and more prosperous.

We will prosper as a result. There are two ways this can
happen: we can acquire more money, or we can arrange
things so that the basics necessary for a quality life will cost
us less.

Since, due to our brain wiring, it is a fact of human nature
that most everyone can sense injustice, once we know about
the life of quality we will seek Justice. We will want to
achieve balance, we will want things to fit. Without Justice
there is no Peace. If one desires peace, he or she will work
for, or at least be an advocate for, Social Justice.

We have now presented values in their correct order from
better to worse since we are aware that some values are of
more value to us than others. We may have known it already
but now we are even more aware that caring (if one wants to
live a successful life) is better than indifference.


As everyone knows, positive values are better than negative
values; but what is not commonly known is that what is
richer in properties is better than what lacks them. Value, it
turns out, is a function of meaning: the more valuable
something is, the more meaningful it is to us, and the more
meaning we find in something the more we will regard it as
having value.

In In addition, we now realize that when one views each
individual as possessing indefinitely-high value, one is
seeing thing clearly and is on the road to living successfully.
We e also understand now that if someone is that valuable,
one would no more want to harm him or her than one would
want to desecrate a treasure. If someone is uncountably
valuable then it is counterproductive to deliberately cause
that person harm. Be mindful that harm or abuse can be both
psychological and physical. When something is done to hurt
others, whether it is ridicule, bullying, or what is called
“collateral damage,” value is lost.

As we go toward zero-value we are going in the direction of
inertness, apathy, and death. In contrast, as we go toward
more positive value (as we add more properties, as we
enrich the concept) we are going in the direction of life, of
life more abundant.

Hence it is imperative for us to: Do no harm!

As one works for social justice, works for a quality life for all,
one is careful to avoid violence, and instead to employ
nonviolent direct action. This is action, not passivity. And it
inflicts no violence, no harm on other people. Recall that
successful living is about caring: Take care of yourself, and
take care of someone else.

Those who live successfully know how to gain value: They
want to empower people from the bottom up; to give them a
road to social upward mobility; provide opportunity. Also,
they foster community and take on responsibility. A good
motto is: “No rights without responsibility.” Falling into a
state of dependency is not advisable. Yet, of course, we all
depend on the wonders that were invented before we came
along; and we depend on each other.

Another imperative of successful living for us is: Whenever
you can – without being a martyr - work to alleviate and
reduce human suffering. As you pursue this goal take care
of yourself so that not only will you be strong enough to be
of help to others, but you won’t have a happy life unless you
stay healthy. The next point is also important!


Each of us has a moral obligation to be morally good, to be happy, and to dispel unhappiness.

Note that ants, tigers, and anteaters have brains, albeit somewhat
primitive. Normal human beings, however, have developed a
functioning cerebral cortex in the frontal lobes of their brains. The primitive brain, the amygdala, tells us to over-eat, to have frequent and indiscriminate sex, to get hostile, while the cerebral cortex tells us it is not wise to over-indulge or too look for a fight – that it is not in our best interest. That cortex is our mind working for us.

The imperative for the happy, successful person is: Be mindful!

Reviewing what is necessary for a life of quality, we need to
care about each other; and we need to practice being happy.
Have you noticed that happy people do not become
terrorists, or whiners, or those feeling like victims?

We also realize that we need to find ways of facilitating
upward social mobility and ways of providing folks with
greater opportunities. This applies to all of us: Be a do-er
not just a talker. Get something worthwhile done.

Becoming the best possible person facilitates our living the best-possible life, and successful living enables us to become the best
we can be. Living a healthy, flourishing life on an ongoing basis
necessitates our possessing a good character.


If we want to live in harmony with nature , we would strive to
maximize value and to minimize disvalue (chaos, misery,
destitution and avoidable suffering.) We would support
practical policies that implement this.

In addition, recall that research in Brain Neurology has shown that we are pre-wired to seek our own personal benefit. A question that arises is: What is that benefit and how can we attain it?
Research by Dr. Post at Case Western Reserve has revealed that if we ‘make someone else happy’ we are then happy too. We come to feel our life is making a difference when we act this way ; life seems more meaningful to us. It is a good feeling! It lifts us up. If we trust others, treat them decently, they often tend to treat us the same way. It is a win/win situation, all around. Those who apply the basic principle “Make things better” to themselves would strive to become even more successful than they already are. They would devote themselves to achieving this goal. In the process of doing so they would develop to the point where others might with some accuracy describe them as having ‘a good character.’ Let’s delve into this further in the next section.

ON HAVING A GOOD CHARACTER

Wide agreement can be seen on the claim that if one has a
good character, all else being equal, one will tend to perform
worthwhile actions; will tend to “do the right thing. People of
good character are honest individuals. Being good often
results in doing good but not necessarily the other way
around: even criminals may sometimes do something good;
but of course cannot accurately be described as having a
good character.

Furthermore, if one has a good character one will be likely to
keep one’s promises, will honor one’s contracts, fulfill one’s
obligations, be responsible,

A person of good character will strive to adhere to some
principles – such as the following:

A SUMMARY OF SOME OF THE BASIC PRINCIPLES

1) Honor and respect every individual.
2) Everyone is doing the best one knows how. If we
knew any better we would do better. It’s mainly due to
ignorance why we behave badly.

3) We are all in this together. We’re all just trying tomake a life.

4) Work for mutually-beneficial relationships. Whatreally helps you, helps me; and vice versa.

5) Strive for excellence in performance! Aim to be a good
person, one who values deeply yourself and others.

6) Be authentic! Don’t be a phony; be true to your true self.

7) In every situation in life the central question to ask yourself is:
What action can I take here and now to create the greatest all-around value?

Provide everyone the full opportunity to express their creativity.

9 ) Empower the individual to express more of his full potential.

10) Look to creative design to solve problems.

11) Be consistent: Do not have double standards, one for
yourself, and others for other people.

12) Include as many as possible into your in-group – widen your
moral compass – be inclusive.

13)) Help those in need.

14) Be honest. Don’t deceive others or “put them on” just for fun.
Don’t toy with people.

15) Be lawful: Do not violate the law unless it is a bad law, one
that violates human dignity by contradicting one of these
principles.

16) Recognize the individual’s right to be autonomous. Acknowledge a person’s freedom over his/her actions or physical body.

17) Be aware of the justice principle: acknowledge a person’s
right to due process, fair compensation for harm done, and fair
distribution of benefits.

18) Acknowledge a person’s rights – among which is a right to
life, to information, privacy, frees expression, and safety.

As we mentioned earlier, none of these principles are
absolutes, they are guidelines. Successful living does not
deal in absolutes. This writer is not interested in, and has no
use for, moralism.

Becoming an early adopter of these concepts will make you
wise and will contribute to bringing everyone closer to living
a happy, successful, quality-filled life.



End Note 1) [Self-defeating behavior may be described as conduct that rates a low degree on the QL measuring scale: i.e., a low Value Quotient on the Hartman Value Profile; or a low rank on a social happiness index. ]



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