Philosophy Now Forum

Christians were not perfect in the past.

But nowadays they are a very peaceful religion (if you take the official version of it as stated by COE, Rome, orthodoxy etc.), I suppose.

Attofishpi is not totally wrong.

We need to distinguish between the official version of islam or different versions of islam and what some people do with it for their own political reasons.

Arising_uk wrote:I note you ignore history where Jews and Christians lived under an Islamic caliphate?

You mean when they were reduced to second rate citizens - dhimmis.

Arising_uk wrote: The Nazi holocaust?

Blaming religion for Hitler now?

Arising_uk wrote:Apart from the commandments that is and all the parables and all the priests telling you what to do.

I'm arguing from a purely secular standpoint, whats all this buy bull shit?

Arising_uk wrote:That's your poll? The word of a radical Muslim? Get real.

The survey was done by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. I have no doubt it was conducted with no bias, simply as they stated, 86% of those surveyed in mosques in Australia stated they WANT sharia law to be imposed in Australia.

Arising_uk wrote:You are not a Christian if you believe this. Do you have any idea how Christianity spread? It wasn't called the Holy Roman Empire for nothing.

You know sweet FA about what it truly means to be a Christian.

Arising_uk wrote:Hello! Christian Germany. Oh how easily the Jew is forgotten.

Blaming Christians again for Hitler?

Arising_uk wrote:No you wise-up. Read some Mao and understand how radical movements achieve their revolutions abd understand how you are furthering their cause.

You lack any true appreciation of what being taught to hate and kill via a 'divine' leader can have on an entire 'brotherhood'.

Arising_uk wrote:I am truly bothered by the situation as a rise in radicalism in one theist religion leads to a radical rise in other theist religions and even pantheist one's. So I am bothered that my daughters may in the future once again be under the patriarchs. My solution would be to shoot the fucking lot of you if only for your philosophical and political stupidity and that you are all quite clearly mad but unfortunately I think that unlikely.

So you would be happy to have me stand against a wall so you can shoot me? This is not a 'Christian' v 'Muslim' argument. Consider me atheist for the sake of this argument.

Arising_uk wrote:With respect to British Islam taking over, do you know the actual percentage of Muslims in my country, not even 5% so I won't be holding my breath for any takeover.

UK average birth rates:- Muslims 8.1 children. Non muslim 1.3
The most common name for boys in the UK is now Mohamad.

Arising_uk wrote:Do I think there is a chance of a militant caliphate threatening my nation in the future, yes i do.

Good. Just wanting to make people realise that Islam having direct instruction from a 'divine' leader to go about murdering and converting, Islam IS radical.

Arising_uk wrote:Please don't bother giving me links to boobtube as I don't click them as they are invariably biased emotive guff.

Biased? Accounts of people that have left Islam, or have been victims of its encroachment is just bias?
Its imperative to hear accounts of this barabaric religion when it takes hold of an area, the video link i posted regarding Brigitte Gabriels account of what happended to her home in Lebanon in the early 70s is a must watch.

I understand your worries, attofishpi.

Would it make you worry less if high religious authories in the islam world made official statements about the passages in Koran that worry non-muslims ?
I mean passages like those that you quoted in post posted at 6.26 a.m.

Perhaps they have already done so. Does anyone know ?

attofishpi wrote:The survey was done by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

I have the ABC radio on all day and every day and have done so for many years. "Expert" commentary on the influence of Islam in modern Australian society is a topic which is discussed very often and yet I've never heard of this survey. Neither is there any mention of it on the ABC official website. Furthermore I've never heard of the ABC conducting any formal surveys on any topic whatsoever beyond an occasional street poll on a subject like who's going to win the grand final. The ABC is a highly respected public broadcaster and what you accuse them of is utter bullshit. Kindly provide your evidence for this claim.

Obvious Leo wrote:

attofishpi wrote:The survey was done by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

I have the ABC radio on all day and every day and have done so for many years. "Expert" commentary on the influence of Islam in modern Australian society is a topic which is discussed very often and yet I've never heard of this survey. Neither is there any mention of it on the ABC official website. Furthermore I've never heard of the ABC conducting any formal surveys on any topic whatsoever beyond an occasional street poll on a subject like who's going to win the grand final. The ABC is a highly respected public broadcaster and what you accuse them of is utter bullshit. Kindly provide your evidence for this claim.

It was a 1~2 year old utube vid copy of the interview. I will try and find it.

I've watched so many videos on utube, can't find the vid with the stat. Its pretty clear what Muslims want re sharia law by interviews on the street with the Muslim passers by, on the second and third vid.

I thought it was this ABC video that had the stat, apologies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmWuRsMrxKw

Today Tonight - Sharia law in Australia - Muslims questioned on the street
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7eQyrDt-U

Fox News - Muslims questioned on the street -Robert Spencer provides stats based on extensive surveys in Mosques in USA since 1998 >80% teach the superiority of Sharia law over constitutional law and the necessity to replace one with the other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0FpDCZdvHk

attofishpi wrote:I thought it was this ABC video that had the stat, apologies

I'll take this as a withdrawal of your slanderous accusation against not only a highly respected national institution but also a slander against my fellow citizens. The commercial media is fond of tracking down lunatics and encouraging them in their hate-speech but these views are in no way representative of the majority Muslim voice in Australia, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. My contempt for religious belief of any kind is uniform across all faiths but as far as I can judge most Muslims are just ordinary Joes trying to get along with their fellow man as best they can and in return they ask for nothing more than to be left in peace and not tarnished with the same brush as the gangsters who have appointed themselves to speak on their behalf. According to the same reasoning I do not regard the Ku Klux Klan as an official organ of the Christian faith entitled to make statements on behalf of Christians.

attofishpi wrote: You mean when they were reduced to second rate citizens - dhimmis.

There were citizens in those days? They were also viziers and whilst definitely subject to constraints the Jews at least we're a damned sight better off under the Ottomans than they were under Christian Spain, it's why they fled there. Do at least a Wiki read on Christians and Jews under the Ottomans and learn something. In fact look up what dhimmis involved.
Anything to say about Indonesia?
The fact is that your claim that Jews and Christians cannot live under Islam is historically and currently wrong.

Blaming religion for Hitler now?

No. You saying the Germans weren't Christian?

I'm arguing from a purely secular standpoint, whats all this buy bull shit?

What was all that Quaranic shiite then?

The survey was done by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. I have no doubt it was conducted with no bias, simply as they stated, 86% of those surveyed in mosques in Australia stated they WANT sharia law to be imposed in Australia.

Post the link.

You know sweet FA about what it truly means to be a Christian.

Show me where Christ said to kill others in self-defense?

]Blaming Christians again for Hitler?

You think Hitler rounded up all the Jews do you? What a busy boy he was. Where were all the Christian neighbours when the homosexuals, handicapped and Jews were being rounded up?

You lack any true appreciation of what being taught to hate and kill via a 'divine' leader can have on an entire 'brotherhood'.

You're a fucking idiot but given you're also a godbothering one I can well understand your insight. Why do you think I told you to read Mao, and whilst you're at it Lenin, as they want idiots like you to start tarring all Muslims as then they get attacked and threatened by other idiots which forces them into the radicals camp. Revolutionary handbook 101.

So you would be happy to have me stand against a wall so you can shoot me?

If it meant an end to godbothering loons promoting hatred in the face of the facts, yup.

This is not a 'Christian' v 'Muslim' argument. Consider me atheist for the sake of this argument.

But you're not are you. If you were you wouldn't be promoting the idea that Christians and Jews can't live under Islam in the face of the fact that in one of the most populous Islamic countries they do do exactly that.

UK average birth rates:- Muslims 8.1 children. Non muslim 1.3
The most common name for boys in the UK is now Mohamad.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/09/10-myt ... -the-west/
2 and 10 are just for you. Although I reckon all of it will apply to you.

Good. Just wanting to make people realise that Islam having direct instruction from a 'divine' leader to go about murdering and converting, Islam IS radical.

Like the Pope you mean. Good job Islam doesn't have such a leader then.

Biased? Accounts of people that have left Islam, or have been victims of its encroachment is just bias?

Look up the accounts of what the Christians militias got up to in Lebanon.
The irony now is that they are teaming up with Hezbolah to fight ISIS. Where does that fit in your thoughts?

Its imperative to hear accounts of this barabaric religion when it takes hold of an area, the video link i posted regarding Brigitte Gabriels account of what happended to her home in Lebanon in the early 70s is a must watch.

So is what the Christian militias got up to. What's imperative is to report the news in an unbiased fashion but unfortunately in the age of the internut and pay per view this is no longer posible. People just want their safe - space news as they like it.

attofishpi wrote:...
Fox News - Muslims questioned on the street -Robert Spencer provides stats ...

FUX NEWS!!? Now there's an oxymoron.

I recently talked to a Curdish Iraki man and he simply said that it is all political what is going on in Iraq and Syria etc.

It makes sense to me:

Instead of saying honestly that what they want is to murder people and to take their property and to sell their wives and children in order to get money and be rich (which would be true but not something you can say openly and expect respect for) they find an excuse for their doings in a religion.
In the past kings and knights and emperors found godly or other "excellent" reasons for getting rich at the expense of other people. Not all but many.

Religions are old and many holy books were written in barbaric times.
Thou shall not suffer a witch to live. (Old Testament)
Luther still believed in witches.
Today we leave elderly unmarried women who gather healing herbs in peace.

You can always find some excuse for your doing something evil.
People have been doing it for millenia.

I understand your worries, attofishpi.

Arising_uk wrote:

attofishpi wrote:So you would be happy to have me stand against a wall so you can shoot me?

If it meant an end to godbothering loons promoting hatred in the face of the facts, yup.

You know i know you are deluded as all atheists unfortunately are.

Where have i promoted hatred in contrast you exemplify a clear hatred of theists, (even though i am not one) as per your statement that you want to kill us!

Anyone that opens debate about Islam is tarnished a 'hater' a 'racist' (lol) a 'bigot' by short sighted morons like you.

duszek wrote:I understand your worries, attofishpi.

Wonderful. Apparently you cannot criticise Islam without being called a hater.

Atto. I think you're reading too much into this and should take a bit more notice of what duszek said. The current fiasco in the middle east is just an old-fashioned war of plunder like most of the wars that went before it. Most of those who show willing to participate in such wars are just ordinary fuckwits who fight because they like the excitement and adventure of it and most understand next to nothing about what they claim to be fighting for. This is just history repeating itself because persuading young men to die in the service of an ambitious warlord has never been an easy sell. You've also got to give them some "noble cause" narrative to attach their polluted minds to or else they won't be so keen to go and get their arses shot off just to pad out some gangster's off-shore tax haven bank account. Keep it simple and it all makes sense.

Atto:

I could critisize islam but I refrain from doing it for political reasons ...
Politics includes diplomacy.

Religions can be used as an excuse for committing criminal acts.
Because religions are old and include facts and reactions to those facts from barbaric times.

The teachings of Jesus are peaceful, yes.
And so are those of Buddha, if I am not mistaken.

Obvious Leo wrote:Atto. I think you're reading too much into this and should take a bit more notice of what duszek said. The current fiasco in the middle east is just an old-fashioned war of plunder like most of the wars that went before it. Most of those who show willing to participate in such wars are just ordinary fuckwits who fight because they like the excitement and adventure of it and most understand next to nothing about what they claim to be fighting for. This is just history repeating itself because persuading young men to die in the service of an ambitious warlord has never been an easy sell. You've also got to give them some "noble cause" narrative to attach their polluted minds to or else they won't be so keen to go and get their arses shot off just to pad out some gangster's off-shore tax haven bank account. Keep it simple and it all makes sense.

I agree, even the reading into part, Islam needs careful consideration. Its Obvious you see how powerful an ideology can become, and Islam is a powerful force.