Philosophy Now Forum

Now if someone enters eternity after someone else they will still be in it for
an infinite amount of time regardless of how far along the infinite spectrum
it may be. The reason for this is because there is no actual end to it as such

Jaded Sage wrote: You didn't read what I wrote carefully. Two corrections: 1) I see no reason to think causality must be chronological by necessity (I am aware that it is usually thought of that way),

If you see no reason to think that physical functions are chronological, try taking a piss before drinking any water. You can't verbally dance your way around chemical process and you can't have a corporeal life-form without chemical processes: they cease; it dies.

2) the idea that corporeal is synonymous with verifiable such that incorporeal is synonymous with unverifiable is a mistake that has been made since the days of Descartes.

I didn't use them as synonyms, I used them as descriptives, thus:
"corporeal - visible, palpable, verifiable - portion of an earthly being "
and I didn't describe the incorporeal portion as unverifiable, though, of course, I assume that is -
unless and until you can verify in some convincing manner the existence of any incorporeal entity.

I suppose you also say the mind is a delusion or a hallucination

I couldn't say that, since both hallucination and delusion are phenomena produced by the mind, which is a process, not a thing, produced by the brain.

that has no existence of its own outside of brainstates. Everyone knows the mind can be explained exclusively in terms of brainstates, but that in no way proves that it has no existence of its own.

The converse has yet to be proven to my satisfaction, but you're welcome to try.

surreptitious57 wrote:Now if someone enters eternity after someone else they will still be in it for
an infinite amount of time regardless of how far along the infinite spectrum
it may be. The reason for this is because there is no actual end to it as such

No 'someone' can enter eternity. At the interface of time and non-time, identity, personhood, individual existence ceases. You can be some body only as long as you are a body; you can be some one, only as long as you are a concrete countable 'one'. As soon as the interface is passed, "one" loses its meaning and the no-longer-embodied entity rejoins the continuum, just as if ' ' had never been absent.

Causality, not physicality. The body clearly seems to be bound to the temporal realm, which is chronological.

I think hallucinations and delusions are produced by the brain, not the mind.

Here is what I argue, perhaps prematurely (please keep in mind everything I just brought up): that the mind is the part of us that can access the atemporal realm, not the body.

Skip wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:
Now if someone enters eternity after someone else they will still be in it for
an infinite amount of time regardless of how far along the infinite spectrum
it may be. The reason for this is because there is no actual end to it as such

You can be some body only as long as you are a body you can be some one only as long as you are a concrete countable
one. As soon as the interface is passed one loses its meaning and the no longer embodied entity rejoins the continuum

You may not be a body as such but you can still be identified as a single entity. An infinite set contains an infinite number of single
entities. They do not lose their individuality just because they are part of that set. For if you have an infinite set of all the positive
integers for example does this mean that none of them can be identified as individual numbers in their own right ? No of course not
Now it is not the number of entities as such that is infinite with regard to eternity rather the duration of eternity itself. Though the
principle is the same. And so if all human beings [ or what ever terminology you wish to identify them by ] that have ever lived end
up in eternity they can still be identified as individuals. Even though they are within an infinite set just like in any other infinite set

Jaded Sage wrote:No, your reasoning is astute. The mistake is in assuming that an experience of eternity, which is, by definition, not everlasting, but outside of time altogether, is any different from an experience of death. That inabilility to detect the more likely times is present in heaven for another reason. I'm not sure what the reason is.

We can obviously debate the exact definition of eternity but the "eternity" that I am referring to is everlasting time, not outside of time, not finite time but infinite time.

Erlaksoo Astralmirk wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:No, your reasoning is astute. The mistake is in assuming that an experience of eternity, which is, by definition, not everlasting, but outside of time altogether, is any different from an experience of death. That inabilility to detect the more likely times is present in heaven for another reason. I'm not sure what the reason is.

We can obviously debate the exact definition of eternity but the "eternity" that I am referring to is everlasting time, not outside of time, not finite time but infinite time.

Yeah, I dunno where that idea came from. That's the definition I used to use to. But I'm fairly certain the Christian notion, which is what I assume influenced the notion presented in this question, was influenced by the Platonic notion, which is as I've described, according to my research.

The idea of an infinity of time is hard to imagine, given that space is a necessary condition for the existence of time, and space is not everlasting (I think—doesn't it all end in singularities and void? It's been a while since I looked). So we need something that can survive such a thing. But the word in the Bible for soul is psyche. I think it isn't too far fetched to just use the word "mind" instead. But let's take a break here. I'm assuming a lot and I don't want to get too far only to have you reveal that I've misassumed it all. Lol.

Hey, great question, btw.

Skip wrote: And, of course, it's not strictly "you" that goes to heaven; it's only the spiritual part, which might not identify itself as the same self that you presently identify as 'you'; indeed, it might not even be part of 'you' at all, but a component that is actually is part of God, that He lends out for the duration of an Earthly life and then reclaims.

I am afraid that there is neither evidence nor logical support for that "you" don't go to heaven. It is obviously possible that you are right, but as there is very little that suggests so, the opposite (that you do go to heaven) is also possible. As the initial statements or questions are based upon that if "you" do go to heaven, that "you" would actually be you, it seems (at least to me) strange to simply state that "you" don't go to heaven.

My initial question was:

If a person is to spend a finite time on earth, let´s say 100 years, but an eternity in heaven, wouldn't it be very unlikely that this person at a certain moment would be on earth?

The question assumes that the person would spend an eternity in heaven. You could possibly state that heaven is for sure a certainty and that the spending of a finite time on earth followed by an infinite time in heaven is incompatible with heaven, meaning that the premises in my question must be wrong and that we therefore would know that it would not be "you" that would go to heaven. That is however a very strong conclusion.

There are no persons in heaven. No persons can survive the break with time - the medium in which personhood develops, experiences and expresses itself - and go into no-time. No person can exist in no-time.

Skip wrote:And your problem....?

My problem is that you pollute any serious discussion with your nonsense and babble, please say something just slightly intelligent instead of pulling thing straight out of your ass that are connected to your fairy tale world.

HexHammer wrote:

Skip wrote:And your problem....?

My problem is that you pollute any serious discussion with your nonsense and babble, please say something just slightly intelligent instead of pulling thing straight out of your ass that are connected to your fairy tale world.

But, you see, it's not my fairy-tale world; it's one that has existed alongside the factual world, in all human societies, since the earliest days of story-telling. I sometimes indulge in forays into that side of culture. I rarely pollute 'serious'* philosophical subjects, and when I do, at least I try to contribute a nice class of contaminant.

This was a nonsense-based thread. Said so, right in the title. I have to wonder what attracted you to it - what dark and secret impulse so frequently attracts you to such subjects when you have no nonsense to add.

*Serious philosophy may be considered to fall on the same side of the culture-divide, but I won't argue that point.

Skip wrote:But, you see, it's not my fairy-tale world; it's one that has existed alongside the factual world, in all human societies, since the earliest days of story-telling. I sometimes indulge in forays into that side of culture. I rarely pollute 'serious'* philosophical subjects, and when I do, at least I try to contribute a nice class of contaminant.

This was a nonsense-based thread. Said so, right in the title. I have to wonder what attracted you to it - what dark and secret impulse so frequently attracts you to such subjects when you have no nonsense to add.

*Serious philosophy may be considered to fall on the same side of the culture-divide, but I won't argue that point.

You speak as if you have never said any nonsense and babble before, and only falls victim to my vicious attack and I accuse you of only speaking nonsense and babble here, which is quite far from the truth, because you ALWAYS speak nonsense and babble no matter the topic.

Even your best attempt ends always in nonsense and babble. Sorry to say.

HexHammer wrote:[Even your best attempt ends always in nonsense and babble. Sorry to say.

Apology accepted.

Skip wrote:There are no persons in heaven. No persons can survive the break with time - the medium in which personhood develops, experiences and expresses itself - and go into no-time. No person can exist in no-time.

Why?

Jaded Sage wrote:

Skip wrote:There are no persons in heaven. No persons can survive the break with time - the medium in which personhood develops, experiences and expresses itself - and go into no-time. No person can exist in no-time.

Why?

It's all been explained umpteen times. Shouldn't have needed explaining even once. Life is chronological.
Try doing it out of time, or in the wrong sequence, and you'll see why.