Philosophy Now Forum

Skip wrote:Did somebody put a wasp in GIA's helmet?

The wasp has a legitimate complaint.

Greatest I am wrote:Life is the greatest gift nature can inadvertently give us.

To resent the bit of pain and death that comes with it is being rather unthankful for our greatest gift.

In some cases, no doubt. For others life is largely torture. Of course the rest of us are somewhere in between, but the fact remains that we live with the awareness that everyone and everything we ever loved will die or be destroyed. All we can do is "make hay while the sun shines".

Greta wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:Life is the greatest gift nature can inadvertently give us.

To resent the bit of pain and death that comes with it is being rather unthankful for our greatest gift.

In some cases, no doubt. For others life is largely torture. Of course the rest of us are somewhere in between, but the fact remains that we live with the awareness that everyone and everything we ever loved will die or be destroyed. All we can do is "make hay while the sun shines".

Yes, we all die, and our kids love us for it because if we did not die, there would be no room for new babies and we would be denying our children life.

We would not be able to help nature give the greatest gift of all. Life.

I saw a clip the other day of a boy with no arms or legs who was showing a bunch of kids how he could bounce around and stand himself up and do other things. He was a happy and beaming child.

Even that poor boy, poor in our eyes that is, was quite happy to be alive.

Regards
DL

Why do we suffer?

I'll tell you exactly what the nurse told me, when I had four broken ribs but had no been told.

"But why does it hurt?", I asked.
"Because you are in pain", he replied - completely without irony.

Greatest I am wrote: I saw a clip the other day of a boy with no arms or legs who was showing a bunch of kids how he could bounce around and stand himself up and do other things. He was a happy and beaming child.
DL

So then, was he a great and giving humanitarian in a past life or a mean, cruel bastard? Is he being rewarded or punished by karma?
And is that life meant to be some kind of positive reflection on a generous Providence? I'm failing to see that boy's fate as a refutation of what I said about life on this planet being dangerous.

Skip wrote:

Greatest I am wrote: I saw a clip the other day of a boy with no arms or legs who was showing a bunch of kids how he could bounce around and stand himself up and do other things. He was a happy and beaming child.
DL

So then, was he a great and giving humanitarian in a past life or a mean, cruel bastard? Is he being rewarded or punished by karma?
And is that life meant to be some kind of positive reflection on a generous Providence? I'm failing to see that boy's fate as a refutation of what I said about life on this planet being dangerous.

Dangerous!

Have you checked the age of death statistics lately?

We have never lived such long, and now getting to be boring, lives.

People are doing all kinds of garbage just for a small kick to help drive monotony away.

I don't know where you get your stats for the evils that befall us but the ones I check from violent death of all kinds to poverty are all the best we have ever enjoyed.

Regards
DL

I don't know where you get your stats for the evils that befall us but the ones I check from violent death of all kinds to poverty are all the best we have ever enjoyed.

I said nothing about statistics or evil. I answered the question "Why do we suffer?" The reason is: there are lots of potentially pain-causing agents and agencies in our environment.

Never mind who enjoys what or how it differs from previous times.

I asked about the boy in the clip you cited. That particular life.
How does that particular life reflect on a benevolent providence? And how does it relate to the question of why we suffer?

Skip wrote:

I don't know where you get your stats for the evils that befall us but the ones I check from violent death of all kinds to poverty are all the best we have ever enjoyed.

I said nothing about statistics or evil. I answered the question "Why do we suffer?" The reason is: there are lots of potentially pain-causing agents and agencies in our environment.

Never mind who enjoys what or how it differs from previous times.

I asked about the boy in the clip you cited. That particular life.
How does that particular life reflect on a benevolent providence? And how does it relate to the question of why we suffer?

And I showed that, per capita, there are lot less potentially pain-causing agents and agencies in our environment and the number is reducing as we speak.

As to the boy, it would take one p**** of a God to plan and execute what that boy was born to be.

It relates to how we suffer by showing one that we likely think would be felling sorry for himself and his condition but our will to live end enjoy life will not let him.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:Life is the greatest gift nature can inadvertently give us.

To resent the bit of pain and death that comes with it is being rather unthankful for our greatest gift.

Greta wrote:In some cases, no doubt. For others life is largely torture. Of course the rest of us are somewhere in between, but the fact remains that we live with the awareness that everyone and everything we ever loved will die or be destroyed. All we can do is "make hay while the sun shines".

Greatest I am wrote:Yes, we all die, and our kids love us for it because if we did not die, there would be no room for new babies and we would be denying our children life.

We would not be able to help nature give the greatest gift of all. Life.

I saw a clip the other day of a boy with no arms or legs who was showing a bunch of kids how he could bounce around and stand himself up and do other things. He was a happy and beaming child.

Even that poor boy, poor in our eyes that is, was quite happy to be alive.

Yes, but some of that child's other circumstances were no doubt favourable. Also, a happy childhood does not guarantee a happy adulthood. It's not just a matter of thinking happy thoughts, no matter what the problem. A great deal of our suffering is within our control, but certainly not all of it unless you are a freak or a saint.

Try another example: browbeaten Muslim women, raped and abused, fleeing to refugee camps because their "honour" has been tarnished by rape, and then find themselves starving in the camp as they watch their babies born of rape die in their arms. The suffering of some people is mind-blowing. I'm not brave or proud enough to figure that I could handle with equanimity the experiences that some some people have suffered through.

There is no denying that some still suffer but less are suffering over time.

You see a glass half empty while I see one half full.

True that we all have only a limited control of our environment and some will suffer enough to want to end their life but if they do not, that means that there is more positive in their situation keeping them here and alive than there is suffering that would make them end their lives.

I guess if your suffering does not make you end your life, it will make you stronger.

That is the royal you BTW.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: And I showed that, per capita, there are lot less potentially pain-causing agents and agencies in our environment and the number is reducing as we speak.

Per capita: We've distributed the pain-causing agents over an ever-increasing population of humans, and keep reducing the populations of all other species. Pretty soon, we'll follow them into extinction, as a result of all the measures we took to reduce the potential pain-causing agents for the lucky top half of the human population. We've also invented and manufactured, in immense quantities, new classes of life-and-limb-threatening things that are hard, heavy, toxic or explosive and move faster than we can.

So? It doesn't respond to the karma issue in the O.P. It doesn't negate the causes and potential causes of physical pain. It doesn't give us any good reason to invent spiritual pain to pile onto, or replace, the real ones.

As to the boy, it would take one p**** of a God to plan and execute what that boy was born to be.

Why? I thought you said he was happy.

Of course, that's bullshit. He manages to compensate for some of his disabilities, and, once for the duration of a performance, he looked cheerful for the camera. That doesn't mean he's actually happy; it just means the poor little beggar is putting the best possible face on a situation he's stuck with.

Again... How does this negate the causes of pain? The question was WHY - not how long do people live or how much suffering is allotted to each one and whether it's okay to complain about it.

Skip wrote:

Greatest I am wrote: And I showed that, per capita, there are lot less potentially pain-causing agents and agencies in our environment and the number is reducing as we speak.

Per capita: We've distributed the pain-causing agents over an ever-increasing population of humans, and keep reducing the populations of all other species. Pretty soon, we'll follow them into extinction, as a result of all the measures we took to reduce the potential pain-causing agents for the lucky top half of the human population. We've also invented and manufactured, in immense quantities, new classes of life-and-limb-threatening things that are hard, heavy, toxic or explosive and move faster than we can.

So? It doesn't respond to the karma issue in the O.P. It doesn't negate the causes and potential causes of physical pain. It doesn't give us any good reason to invent spiritual pain to pile onto, or replace, the real ones.

As to the boy, it would take one p**** of a God to plan and execute what that boy was born to be.

Why? I thought you said he was happy.

Of course, that's bullshit. He manages to compensate for some of his disabilities, and, once for the duration of a performance, he looked cheerful for the camera. That doesn't mean he's actually happy; it just means the poor little beggar is putting the best possible face on a situation he's stuck with.

Again... How does this negate the causes of pain? The question was WHY - not how long do people live or how much suffering is allotted to each one and whether it's okay to complain about it.

There is no such thing as karma.

It sounds like you saw the clip as you seem to know what that boy was feeling both on and off camera.

Life is the cause of pain. being born is the first step towards our death.

Get rid of life and you get rid of pain.

I know of no other way.

Regards
DL

The question of this thread maybe implying that we should not suffer or
that suffering is not necessary. But a simple answer is we are life forms
with complex nervous systems and equally complex but sensitive brains
So that is it in a nut shell though it is of course more complex than that

Greatest I am wrote:There is no such thing as karma.

Gee, ya think?

It sounds like you saw the clip as you seem to know what that boy was feeling both on and off camera.

I didn't see the clip - I had only your word for it. And you have no more to base that word on than a clip. All you can vouch for is what you saw. I thought you drew too sweeping an inference from that viewing. Now you're drawing more unfounded inferences.

Life is the cause of pain. being born is the first step towards our death.

Well, at least now it doesn't have to go without saying.

Get rid of life and you get rid of pain.

Don't tell me - tell Osric. Of course, he's not interested in getting rid of pain; he's interested in experiencing everybody else's life so we can all have empathy for everybody else. I don't think that's likely to happen.

Skip wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:There is no such thing as karma.

Gee, ya think?

It sounds like you saw the clip as you seem to know what that boy was feeling both on and off camera.

I didn't see the clip - I had only your word for it. And you have no more to base that word on than a clip. All you can vouch for is what you saw. I thought you drew too sweeping an inference from that viewing. Now you're drawing more unfounded inferences.

Life is the cause of pain. being born is the first step towards our death.

Well, at least now it doesn't have to go without saying.

Get rid of life and you get rid of pain.

Don't tell me - tell Osric. Of course, he's not interested in getting rid of pain; he's interested in experiencing everybody else's life so we can all have empathy for everybody else. I don't think that's likely to happen.

If one has to experience everything directly before the empathy emotion kicks in, then I would suggest that that person does not know empathy.

Regards
DL