Philosophy Now Forum

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

carlin2.jpg

I would never wear a poppy - not because I do not honour the dead of the world wars, but EXACTLY BECAUSE I value their lives which our governments so recklessly threw away for selfish reasons and political gain.
Poppy wearing validates state murder and perpetuates the notion that such murder is acceptable and necessary.

I would wear a white poppy in support of those that refused to fight but were executed by the government for doing so.

Obvious Leo wrote:VT. I hope I can disagree with you without becoming the next victim to fall under the boot-heel of your wrath. Personally I would never wear a poppy because I find such fatuous symbolism rather self-indulgent but I have visited some of the war grave sites of Belgium and France and was deeply moved by the experience. Also I have always been deeply attracted to the poetry of the famous WWI poets, such as Owen, Sassoon and Graves. Far from glorifying war these guys were able to convey a message of the tragic waste and futility of war and how it degrades the nobility of the human experience. I feel much the same way about the Anzac day commemorations in my own country. I never attend such functions myself but I respect the integrity of those who choose to do so and I simply don't see what you seem to be seeing.

I see people gathered together to share in the grief of a great loss to the dignity of humanity. I see only ordinary people connecting with a tragedy which occurred long before they were born but one from which they must learn something about themselves. These people are saying Never Again. We must not do this again.

Obvious Leo wrote:Of course I read the article or else I wouldn't presume to contribute to the discussion and I've read plenty of others like it over the years. All I'm saying is that this is not what I'm seeing because we don't have that sort of shit in my country and I'm glad of it.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Obvious Leo wrote:Of course I read the article or else I wouldn't presume to contribute to the discussion and I've read plenty of others like it over the years. All I'm saying is that this is not what I'm seeing because we don't have that sort of shit in my country and I'm glad of it.

Newsreaders here wear them. Our newspapers are full of pro-war shit, and we have traditionally been peaceful compared to Australia. Perhaps you just haven't noticed it, or it hasn't registered. It actually scares the crap out of me.

Dalek Prime wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Obvious Leo wrote:Of course I read the article or else I wouldn't presume to contribute to the discussion and I've read plenty of others like it over the years. All I'm saying is that this is not what I'm seeing because we don't have that sort of shit in my country and I'm glad of it.

Newsreaders here wear them. Our newspapers are full of pro-war shit, and we have traditionally been peaceful compared to Australia. Perhaps you just haven't noticed it, or it hasn't registered. It actually scares the crap out of me.

The UK has been traditionally peaceful compared to Australia!? You have got to be joking! You've dragged the whole Empire into your wars, idiot. And the fellow you've quoted clearly states that the "war-mongering" tradition of poppies that you beef about was of British origin. Hardly peaceful. In both world wars, Britain used troops around the Empire to do their dirty work. Gallipoli, Dieppe, even after the failure at Dunkirk. Hong Kong. Those are just a few.

Obvious Leo wrote:Furthermore Churchill was furious when Curtin withdrew the Australian troops from the European theatre after the bombing of Darwin by the Japanese. Churchill reckoned the empire was more important than any of its colonies and his phrase was "Don't worry about Australia and New Zealand, we can get them back later". To which Curtin replied in the vein of "Fuck You Winnie, these arseholes are knocking on our front door and our blokes are coming home". Churchill reluctantly acquiesced after it was pointed out to him that if he didn't then the Australian divisions would simply retire from the battlefield and piss off home anyway, leaving him in a hell of a mess. Ultimately it was the US navy which prevented Australia from being overrun by the Japanese, although they could never have held the territory anyway. The US extracted a goodly pound of flesh in exchange for their help because unfortunately Australia has been a reluctant participant in many of their ill-judged foreign adventures since, including the most recent defeats in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Obvious Leo wrote:Our soldiers had a fair bit of bad luck with Churchill. He was also the architect of the Gallipoli debacle in WWI when Australia and New Zealand suffered the highest number of casualties per capita of any combatant nation in the entire war. And none of it had anything to do with us!!! It wasn't our fucking problem.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

carlin2.jpg

I would never wear a poppy - not because I do not honour the dead of the world wars, but EXACTLY BECAUSE I value their lives which our governments so recklessly threw away for selfish reasons and political gain.
Poppy wearing validates state murder and perpetuates the notion that such murder is acceptable and necessary.

I would wear a white poppy in support of those that refused to fight but were executed by the government for doing so.

Hallelujah. Someone who gets it. I think I'm in love with this post.