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Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:26 pm
by Scott Mayers
cladking wrote:
PoeticUniverse wrote: Philosophers are seekers of truth, and so we have no real fear of encountering Dennet’s universal acid that can eat away our notions.
I don't believe this is true.

So long as they only have to believe in nonsense like survival of the fittest or that the human species is infected by ideas that spread like cancer they're willing to pursue any line of thought. But suggest that skyhooks are real and humans are in(af)fected by a language that really has been confused and they scatter like rabbits before a wolf pack. Suggest that language provides a perspective that can warp our perception of reality and even Science Itself, and theologians will run with the rabbits. Suggest that science is seen as models that have no validity and math is never properly applied and everyone is gone to the briar patches.

It's not the rabbits who are slower who fail to reproduce, it's the ones that won't run at all or those which can't be saved by even divine speed. There's no such thing as "fitness". Every animal on the face of the earth tries to maintain itself within optimal operating parameters except countless millions of confused humans.

Sky hooks are real, change in species is real, intelligence is a "feeling" generated by language.
I'm lost on your words with certain clarity but notice you seem to think 'fitness' means that which is optimal and improved. Evolution's 'fitness' means a match to ones environment. In other words given the environment of a church, a lone atheist has less of a chance to 'fit' in that community, get laid, and have offspring to assure its genes get expressed in the pitter patter of little children. It does NOT mean that the ones that do get to reproduce become more intellectual, more powerful, more skilled, etc. What are your 'sky hook' references to? A god from above pulling you?

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:07 pm
by cladking
Scott Mayers wrote: I'm lost on your words with certain clarity but notice you seem to think 'fitness' means that which is optimal and improved. Evolution's 'fitness' means a match to ones environment. In other words given the environment of a church, a lone atheist has less of a chance to 'fit' in that community, get laid, and have offspring to assure its genes get expressed in the pitter patter of little children. It does NOT mean that the ones that do get to reproduce become more intellectual, more powerful, more skilled, etc.
It doesn't matter exactly how you define "fitness" it is not normally a cause of change in species. It's far more likely to affect the odds of an individual surviving a specific event but even in aggregate these events aren't often reflected in change in species. For instance all fruit flies will be killed by a high level of CO2 so it's highly unusual there would be just enough CO2 to kill some individuals and not others. In the real world where change in species actually occurs the survivors will be the ones that aren't near the source of the gas. This has nothing at all to do with fitness and everything to do with behavior. Nature "punishes" "bad" behavior not weakness and it punishes it during near extinction events where survivors share the genes that led to behavior their made their survival possible. This is why there are no missing links; there never were. Survivors breed a "new" species.
What are your 'sky hook' references to? A god from above pulling you?
Essentially. It's really an inside joke more than anything. But in any case "miracles" really do exist and from the perspective of the average man it was literally a "sky hook" (tie of isis) that lifted stones on the pyramid. Reality itself is a sort of sky hook but we can't see it from our position of omniscience. Look at a cloud and ponder how it achieved the exact shape it has and the history of each water molecule. Predict what the next cloud will look like. There's your sky hook.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:27 pm
by Scott Mayers
cladking wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote: I'm lost on your words with certain clarity but notice you seem to think 'fitness' means that which is optimal and improved. Evolution's 'fitness' means a match to ones environment. In other words given the environment of a church, a lone atheist has less of a chance to 'fit' in that community, get laid, and have offspring to assure its genes get expressed in the pitter patter of little children. It does NOT mean that the ones that do get to reproduce become more intellectual, more powerful, more skilled, etc.
It doesn't matter exactly how you define "fitness" it is not normally a cause of change in species. It's far more likely to affect the odds of an individual surviving a specific event but even in aggregate these events aren't often reflected in change in species. For instance all fruit flies will be killed by a high level of CO2 so it's highly unusual there would be just enough CO2 to kill some individuals and not others. In the real world where change in species actually occurs the survivors will be the ones that aren't near the source of the gas. This has nothing at all to do with fitness and everything to do with behavior. Nature "punishes" "bad" behavior not weakness and it punishes it during near extinction events where survivors share the genes that led to behavior their made their survival possible. This is why there are no missing links; there never were. Survivors breed a "new" species.
I'm confused at you here whether you believe in Evolution or are refuting it in some way. Selection is the process of which nature favors what 'fits' (meaning to match with its environment) and is completely different than meaning to advance with any better quality of genes OR behavior. I gave the example of the church because I don't particularly believe church goers represent an advanced intellectual group in contrast to the atheist. But you could reverse this if you feel insulted by thinking of a lone Christian among less wise atheists, if you wish, to get my point. In such a crowd, even your 'wise' Christian would be less likely to survive in a crowd of atheists. [Don't take this literal either as we tend not to have enough women in atheism for some odd reason.] That is, even superficial qualities that have no actual better or improved quality genetically get passed on merely for surviving long enough and being allowed to reproduce.

Fitness (the proper meaning) is absolutely necessary as a causative agent of importance in evolution. What is 'fit' gets "selected" as much by deselecting what cannot fit or gets rejected too for ANY reason, and even against any ideal 'fitness' (= the higher quality genes interpretation you thought of).

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:59 pm
by cladking
Scott Mayers wrote:
Fitness (the proper meaning) is absolutely necessary as a causative agent of importance in evolution. What is 'fit' gets "selected" as much by deselecting what cannot fit or gets rejected too for ANY reason, and even against any ideal 'fitness' (= the higher quality genes interpretation you thought of).
The concept that species change because of a tendency of individuals most suited to their enviroment to survive prefentially to others is utter nonsense based on a confusion caused by language. The concept that concepts evolve based on their fitness or any other criteria is equally ludicrous. There's no such thing as "evolution" and is an intellectualization of a 19th century philosopher's attitude toward his own success just as the id arose from a sexual dalience with a sister in law.

There's no such thing as "a rabbit" so postulating some most "fit" specimen will survive is a confdusion that can't be based in reality. There are simply "things" which share sufficient numbers of traits that we call "rabbits" and they are collectively known as "rabbit". Each of these "rabbits" is an individual with a distinct set of genes and distinct behavior which arises largely as a result of those specific genes. We lump them all together as a "rabbit" to fascilitate communication but there is no referent for the word except in specific context. Rabbits can't evolve or be fit because rabbit doesn't exist. Of course the animal we label "rabbit" changes over time just as every other animal does but it does not evolve and the change has little to nothing to do whith "fitness". It has to do with the behavior which is largely determined by the individual's(') genes. Nature selects for behavior prefentially to fitness. Most species change occurs in near extinction events where "wrong" behaviors are more completely exterminated. It's only when one or a few behaviors are selected for that the genes that define such behavior are more clearly expressed. Fitness is irrelevant and the new species arising from a populatiuon bottleneck might be smaller, less agile, less intelligent, or less fit in virtually every category than had been common. They share the genes associated with the behavior that saved them and then they immediuately give birth to a new species (a changed species). There are no missing links because most change is sudden. Even where it isn't sudden it is still chiefly the result of behavior and localized population bottlenecks.

Most other change in species results from mutation. There are (many) other causative agents as well but these are the chief two and neither is related to "fitness" or any other similar concept. Every animal is fit and almost every animal might survive almost anything that would leave some of its kind alive. It matters very very little to a species if a slow rabbit gets eaten or a fruit fly that's hypersensitive to CO2 drops dead because something breaths on it. But if most fruit flies die for any reason at all except a few that eat a lot of peaches then the new species will be different but they won't even necessarily be better adapted to eating peaches. Whatever the new species is more individuals will probably prefer peaches (they can't swallow a pineapple anyway ;) ).

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:08 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
People have pulled up the phrase "survival of the fittest", to be some sort of meaningless tautology.
There are a couple of things here that are important.
This is NOT Darwin's phrase for sure. I'm pretty sure the phrase was coined by Spencer or Huxley.
Standing alone it does not mean much. But as it is in fact a tautology the phrase is simply used to draw attention to a fact of existence.
The fact is that you have to reproduce successfully to have progeny in the next generation. And having the 'fitness' requires that you survive in the environment in which you find yourself.
So much so obvious.
It is what Darwin points out as a consequence of this fact that is important.
Life for reasons Darwin did not know, always shows variation. Given the "survival of the fittest" nature brings those variants into the next generation that are most fit to survive and most importantly those variants that impede the reproductive success die out.
So from two observations Natural Selection is a consequence.
The fact that "survival of the fittest" is circular is the degree to which it is an irrefutable observation.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:10 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
cladking wrote:]

The concept that species change because of a tendency of individuals most suited to their enviroment to survive prefentially to others is utter nonsense based on a confusion caused by language. The concept that concepts evolve based on their fitness or any other criteria is equally ludicrous. There's no such thing as "evolution" and is an intellectualization of a 19th century philosopher's attitude toward his own success just as the id arose from a sexual dalience with a sister in law.
There's no such thing as "a rabbit" so postulating some most "fit" specimen will survive is a confdusion that can't be based in reality. There are simply "things" which share sufficient numbers of traits that we call "rabbits" and they are collectively known as "rabbit". .
Do you have any other means to account for the evidence of fossils and the origin of species on our planet, or do you think that none of these things exist either?
What makes you think that you exist, or maybe you think "exist" does not exist?
Darwin did not have a dalience with his sister in law.

A species is a group of living things that share traits sufficient that they are able to mate and reproduce. Rabbits are so called as they conform to a group of mammals of similar appearance, and (as we now know) share close genomic similarities, and are capable of successful mating. QED there are "rabbits".

Of course the animal we label "rabbit" changes over time just as every other animal does but it does not evolve and the change has little to nothing to do whith "fitness".
A rabbit that cannot survive to pass on its genes is unfit (by definition) to do so. This has every thing to do with fitness. Rabbits that are fit to pass on their genes can.

It has to do with the behavior which is largely determined by the individual's(') genes. Nature selects for behavior prefentially to fitness.
You are completely confused. Nature is not a selective agent. Selection is the consequence of successful behaviour, and it is this behaviour that determines fitness

Most species change occurs in near extinction events where "wrong" behaviors are more completely exterminated. It's only when one or a few behaviors are selected for that the genes that define such behavior are more clearly expressed.
Nature does not "know" what a behaviour is 'for", so is incapable of selection. Natural Selection results in the loss of unsuccessful traits, behaviours, and genes. And the preservation of neutral, positive and even some negative traits behaviours and genes - just so long as the individuals with them can have successful progeny. So Nature is NOT selecting FOR, in any sense.

Most other change in species results from mutation. There are (many) other causative agents as well but these are the chief two and neither is related to "fitness" or any other similar concept. Every animal is fit and almost every animal might survive almost anything that would leave some of its kind alive. It matters very very little to a species if a slow rabbit gets eaten or a fruit fly that's hypersensitive to CO2 drops dead because something breaths on it. But if most fruit flies die for any reason at all except a few that eat a lot of peaches then the new species will be different but they won't even necessarily be better adapted to eating peaches. Whatever the new species is more individuals will probably prefer peaches (they can't swallow a pineapple anyway ;) )
Mutations are mostly useless and result in the death of the organism. Variation is more important. But as "fitness" means nothing more than having successful progeny, then evolution is the result of the selection of the fit, and the death of the unfit.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:24 pm
by cladking
Scott Mayers wrote:Evolution's 'fitness' means a match to ones environment. In other words given the environment of a church, a lone atheist has less of a chance to 'fit' in that community, get laid, and have offspring to assure its genes get expressed in the pitter patter of little children. It does NOT mean that the ones that do get to reproduce become more intellectual, more powerful, more skilled, etc.
[/quote]


Part of the problem that makes things hard to describe or see is that the very language we use to see and communicate is a confusion of ancient ideas. Religion is a confusion of ancient science that had determined the "best" behaviors for survival and avoidance of extinction events. We're left with science that is misunderstood and religion that is confused. Philosophy is much more an offshoot of language than it is truth. It, too, is a confusion of ideas like that rabbits exist and change through survival of the fittest.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:32 pm
by cladking
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
What makes you think that you exist, or maybe you think "exist" does not exist?

The fact that "survival of the fittest" is circular is the degree to which it is an irrefutable observation.
That's great. Reality needs to be proven but that "fit" rabbits succeed doesn't. We aren't going to be able to agree on enough premises to argue at all.

Darwin did not have a dalience with his sister in law.
I was referring to Freud's sister in law.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:05 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
cladking wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
What makes you think that you exist, or maybe you think "exist" does not exist?

The fact that "survival of the fittest" is circular is the degree to which it is an irrefutable observation.
That's great. Reality needs to be proven but that "fit" rabbits succeed doesn't. We aren't going to be able to agree on enough premises to argue at all.

Darwin did not have a dalience with his sister in law.
I was referring to Freud's sister in law.
Darwin was of the previous generation to Freud. Darwin's thoughts on evolution were due to a lifetime's study. He married his cousin. I wonder if that is what you meant?

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:02 pm
by Scott Mayers
Cladking,

You need to do a lot of homework on evolution.

I have a hard time making sense of you here on this topic. I'm guessing your reference to a general form is about a concern whether species could evolve from a single source but is misplaced.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:04 pm
by PoeticUniverse
3. Do we have free will?

Cause Determines Effect

The ultimate adventure is to seek truth, openly, without bias, for an agenda driven toward fulfilling a desire may block the path. To be such a seeker is to dare the opening of Pandora’s Box of Truths, no longer being able to shut the lid on them.

Although I’ve derived and/or come across many astonishing truths, there is one that stubbornly stares us in the face as as something at first perhaps taken as horrendous, which is that cause determines effect, that is, input gives rise to the output, making life and nature to do what must be done as time moves along.

What ‘IS’ can no more not exist than it
Can rule any of what goes on in it;
Impute not thy blame, shame, or fame to it—
Fate’s Wheel’s more helpless than all within it.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #41 retransmogrified

There can be no outputs without inputs, no effects without causes, for Nothing cannot be, and so ‘it’ cannot be a cause or an input. Thus, there is no true ‘random’. A Geiger counter may appear to beep “randomly”, but why would it reach some threshold to beep when just exactly when it does and not at some other time? And why at a certain place and not another?

Now if someone wants to posit undiscovered causes, such as spirits helping or hindering, someone else’s brain waves traveling through the air to influence someone else (could be), cosmic rays affecting (at least this seems possible), or even ‘random’, then these are just another of the causes determining the outcome, which is why ‘cause determines effect’ is so intractable.

As for mental lapses, neurotransmitter spikes, distractions, coercions, the weather, they and the like, too, are just another cause inputting to the effect as the output.

Imagine a reality in which neither nature nor one’s brain leads to the effect of an output, that outputs and effects pop out of nowhere. Well, it can only be imagined.

All moves by law of output from input,
The will, too, since it votes to step a foot,
And worse, by the time we know, all’s been cast;
We can neither wax nor wane the mold’s root.

— Austin

So, the dropping of the first shoe of determinism startles and discomforts us, but then the imagined dropping the other shoe of the worse horror of what ‘random’ would mean at least makes us feel a little bit better.

So, we have found a truth, and from that we may learn more, but still know that it can be as Dennet’s universal acid that dissolves what we may have come to cherish.

The “disturbing” specter of cause leading to effect is:

1) Events are “decided” as they go, yet still determined.

The consolation prizes from cause and effect are:

It can’t be any other way, and this grants consistency.

Consistency grants continuance. Life was produced, via the necessities of evolution through natural selection, after forming a base for it through particles forming stars emitting the atomic elements, which formed molecules, cells, and so forth.

3) We experience life’s happenings, feeling them as novel.

4) We reduce agitation, for whatever will be, will be.

5) We gain compassion for those stuck, who resist change.

6) Knowing a truth provides for learning, and thus wisdom.

Whether we are for or against myths and folk tales no longer matters when they are eaten away by truth, although surely there are those who can (must) try to deflect, deny, and so forth, but that, too, is how it all must be. We learn to take it all in with a grain of salt that can reduce agitation.

What the meaning to this play we’re befit,
From dirt to dust within the script that’s writ?
The wise in search have thrown themselves to waste;
Experience alone is the benefit.


— Austin

To be fair, though, the experiences of living in third world countries may not be considered as a benefit by some.

From birth we can look forward to being host
To woe, and then to giving up the ghost.
Happy are they who quickly burn to toast,
And blessed are they who ne’er came to the roast.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #124 retransmogrified

Rejoice, for your goose was cooked long ago,
Your future eggs laid ‘fore you were aglow .
Ne’er can be recalled now’s bird that has flown,
So love life’s flight, on the winds that must blow.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #152 retransmogrified

Fate’s Wheel soft whispers in my ear, "I know
What’s been decreed—just ask and I will show.”
Were mine the hand that made myself revolve,
I should have saved myself from reeling so.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #154 retransmogrified

Sometimes I employ a knowing denial, not focusing on knowing all is like a play in which I unknowingly act out a script made as it goes along, and feel that I am making my way as some sort of mini first cause (mini first effect, really, with no resources of causes/inputs); however, I sought the truth and found it, so at the end of the day, I know, I know. I, too, let myself feel romantic love and such, though it be of the chemicals of bonding hormones. The same for the thrills of novelty brought on by rising dopamine levels. Oh, and the opiate endorphins feel so good!

I, of the endless forms most beautiful,
Am stunned that my glass to the brim is full,
Life’s wine coursing through me, as ‘magical’,
On this lovely, rolling sphere so bountiful.


— Austin

The universe’s mantle binds us worn—
Tears feeding the river on which we’re borne.
Hell’s but an ember of our senseless fears;
Heaven’s the rose-breath of opening morn.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #33 retransmogrified

Apparently, we evolved to to fully attend to the conscious, second story/storey, unaware of the first storey where all the machinery of the subconsciousness analysis of the neural network resides, until science informed us of it.

And what of the other clincher that time must go by for the brain to perform its subconscious analysis (200-300ms) before the result is put forth? The conscious realm of ‘I’, then, is as a tourist along for the ride. This is not to say that consciousness isn’t used for learning to do what can then become automatic, nor that it doesn't aid the envisioning of actionizing before committing to an action, but in so doing these becomes yet just another input, leaving my idea of determinism intact.

What about that “Life is a test.” Well, it can’t be so with determinism.

There goes that, as well as other sayings, some of them not meaning anything in the first place, such as ‘free will’, in this case the will not being free of doing what is has too, namely willing, or ‘free’ as opposed to ‘fixed’. So, ‘free will’ is reduced to indicating that the will is able to operate, which is no great shake, or that one’s actions are not being coerced, whether by another person or by the whether or whatnot, known as compatibilism, but this, too, gives us no real revelation or insight. Besides, coercion was going to happen as an effect from the causes that it had. The will is just the will—a neural network that votes.

The judicial courts differentiate between ‘responsible’ versus ‘coerced’ (or metal ills), this axis being orthogonal to the other axis of ‘free will’ versus ‘fixed will’ or ‘undetermined versus determined’, which the judges hardly get into, although there are cases in which defendants plead bad nurture, or, as of late, that addicts need help rather than being incarcerated as criminals.

Defendant: Your honor, the universe made me do it, so please don’t sentence me.

Judge: Yes, true, but we still have to lock you up until the universe doesn’t make you do it anymore, for learning may happen, plus we have to protect society.

What about “if, could have, and should have?” They are gone, too, have met their demise. What if Hitler had developed the A-bomb? He didn’t; there are no “if’s”. The actualities of the time trump any kind of ‘if’. Enrico Fermi covered his instrument with tin foil in 1938 and thus did not discover fusion, plus the Allies attacked the heavy water production plant, and Heisenberg perhaps thwarted the German nuclear effort, for he gave a drawing to Bohr that scientist at Los Alamos noted could never work.

Now’s pen inscribes, based on what was there,
Its destined words phrasing our sentence here.
Although it may spell to us right or wrong,
Even one letter’s change hasn’t a prayer.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #54 retransmogrified

‘We’ really don’t actually ‘do’ anything.

Since outputs always have inputs, so true,
Then what, we wonder, should we try to do?
It’s the other way around, oh, brain stew,
For cause, time, and the universe do you!


— Austin

Outputs must have inputs, they in turning
Becoming inputs to more ‘fates’ churning;
In that sense, all is writ, on every path,
As in ours, so what must be will e’er spring.


— Austin

We are thrust into life, unasked, because we can’t be consulted, and we must deal with it.

What matters where, what, when, or even who?
In life’s fill, any narrative will do.
Drink through all phases of the lunar month,
The cup waxing and waning, just like you.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #47 retransmogrified

What be: thy output must form from input,
For naught else can stride the moving foot,
And surely naught from nought makes no ‘random’;
The pen can’t revise its scroll; “we’re” caput.


— Omar’s Bodleian Manuscript q #95 retransmogrified

The wrap up, as a kind of poetry slam:

Ah, in the whole, you’re just afraid of being unfree,
But, hey, look, behold! There is still so much beauty!
It’s a sublime law, indeed,
Otherwise what beauty could there be?
So here the coin’s other side speaks—
A toss up, weighted equally.


It’s from the searched finding of truth—not of fright,
Though determinism is really not a very pretty sight.
Beauty exists either way, for there is still novelty,
But ‘determined’s opposite is of an impossible currency.

How dare you curse the freedom to be;
It’s because you are scared of He!
What greater proof of inner freedom then
Could His gift of wild flight to us send?


Really, it not of a scare that He is there,
But because ‘random’ cannot even be there,
For, then on nothing would things depend—all bare,
If it could even be, but it has no clothes to wear.

I swear I am more—that I do act freely!
Don’t pass off my passions so calculatingly.
I'll let the rams butt their heads together;
One absolute position subsides for its brother!


Yes, it seems that we can choose, even otherwise,
But what is within, as the state of being wise,
Knows not the hidden, non-apparent states below,
For that is a ‘second story’, having only one window.

One rigid mode of thought’ score
Consumes the other with folklore,
Unbending, unyielding with perfect defense,
To orchestrate life’s symphony at the song’s expense.


We’re happy to just find out the truth;
However, when subjected to the proof,
We wish that the coin could stand on its edge,
And see that it cannot, which is knowledge.

So lets define the world and human existence
On a couple hundred years of material witness,
Or burn the measuring eye to the stake!
After all, our freedom’s what it seeks to forsake!


Evolution didn’t work by chance for us to live,
For natural selection is the scientific alternative
To Intelligent Design from something outside;
The coin of determination has no other side.

The secret is simply that a secret does exist
And no amount of data can take away this,
But this doesn’t mean a ghost in the machinery;
But perhaps the heart isn’t just a pump, the liver a refinery.


We often forget the secret, willingly,
In order to live life excitingly,
Which it still would be, either way,
As we’re still part of the play, anyway.

But of course there is a past of ‘whethers’,
Through which we’ve been weathered.
Surely we are moved as dust from gust to gust,
But is two-twice-two as four always a must?


Math, too, is a must, and we try, as ever,
To predict a week ahead the weather,
Yet the data seem to much to work with,
But indetermination measures not random’s width.

Is not an unfree will a blatant contradiction
Developed from the an ‘enlightened conviction’?
If I’ve made a choice then I have willed it
And if it’s been willed then freedom’s fulfilled it.


This what I mean, that the will willed one’s self,
Which is that one does not will the will itself.
The neurons vote, based on who one is—
Nothing else is there to answer the quiz.

And of course it’s in and of a misguided pit
To say that from the past we’ve distilled it.
Is not the idea of complete self-autonomy a ruse
Born from the illusion of the existentialist blues?


We distill what comes into us, too,
For it has to become part of us, new,
For mirror neurons act it out, while we are still,
Invading our sanctum and altering the will.

But of course, this is to be much expected
From a culture that lacks all mythical perspective.
‘Nonsense’ we call it, a virtue of not thinking,
From which we have long since been departing,
So now will behold in all its transparency
Beyond childish ideals of essence and archaic fantasy.


That’s close, but it’s thinking that has grown,
By science and logic informed from reason sown,
In place of feeling, sensation, wishes, and the pleas
To have the universe be what it ought to be.

Do not distort with a desire for meaning.
Oh, the babe, lets leave the child a’weening,
But I ask of you: have you not tried in-betweening?


There are two ways of living, sometimes merging,
One of just ‘state of being’, of its only showing,
And one of the being plus the under-knowing;
As with our life’s wife, we dwell not on hormoning.

And in that same breath we say all is forgiven;
Why hold humans responsible, leading to derision?
Of course an eye for an eye was an unjust decision.


Well, we have a system that draws a line between
A crime of passion and a thought-out, sought-for infliction.

“The universe made me do it,” says the accused,
And the Judge replies, “Well, this does excuse,
But I still have to sentence you to the pen,
Until the universe can’t make you do it again.”

Why must it be a question of absolute freedom
As complete randomness over an unbending system
That structures everything that ever was, is, and will be,
Right down to the elementary structures
Of incomprehensibility.


What is set forth in the beginning
Is ever of itself continuing,
Restrained by time, yes, but unfolding,
For there is nothing else inputting.

I may understand why this has to be;
I have felt the rapture of black and white toxicity,
But why subjugate all possibility for novelty?


It will still be novel, even such as a new parking lot,
For the dopamine neurotransmitters will stir the pot.
New is still new, on the grand tour through life;
Then do some predicting, to then avoid some strife.

Can such a thought hope to cast a wrench into these gears,
A tool so heavy that dissuades all of our fears?
Will all order and inertia be torn asunder?
Will we have giant ants wearing top hats over,
With all rationality considered a blunder?


The truth was not sought to drop a spanner into the works,
But it even turns out to grant more of compassion’s perks
For those afflicted with the inability for learning,
Thus eliminating the great annoyances burning.

Am I simply a delusional puddle here,
Perceiving just my liquid perimeter,
As I think to myself I can control
The very rain that expands my rule.
And the humidity that thins
Should I condemn as that which sins?


There are no sins, but just destiny’s fate,
Which even includes one’s learnings of late.
We and all are but whirl-pools, of the same oscillations,
Some lasting longer, yes, but of the same instantiations.

Outputs without inputs cannot ever be,
Or the actions would pop randomly,
Yet to some people that’s the enemy,
A useless state that’s not here, thankfully.

— Austin


Note: — All my retransmogrifications of Omar Khayyam's Bodleian Manuscript are here:

https://austintorney.wordpress.com/2015 ... n-project/

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:17 pm
by Obvious Leo
Scott. I have no idea what you're asking of me. If you're asking do I accept that the universe was in existence long before I was then the answer is YES, I already suspected as much.

Are you sure that's a useful question to ask in an adult conversation?

Austin. Welcome to the discussion. May the wisdom of the immortal Persian live long in us all.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:37 pm
by Scott Mayers
Obvious Leo wrote:Scott. I have no idea what you're asking of me. If you're asking do I accept that the universe was in existence long before I was then the answer is YES, I already suspected as much.

Are you sure that's a useful question to ask in an adult conversation?

Austin. Welcome to the discussion. May the wisdom of the immortal Persian live long in us all.
If you take only your experience as an observer, you have to accept that you came from nothing with even more certainty that inferring the past even before you. You have to learn to interpret a past external to oneself by sampling. But what I'm getting at is that from the fact that you can even interpret how the younger you were and the less your 'knew', you can use this as a sample to reduce each experience until you were at some point you did not exist as nothing. This proves that nothing relative to each person is sensible unless you believed and remember the eternity before you.

By the way, I had to look back far to catch what precisely I said and you said etc. I'm having multiple conversations going and so for future reference maybe you can reproduce the comment here to help. Thanks Leo.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:59 pm
by Obvious Leo
PoeticUniverse wrote: The will is just the will—a neural network that votes.
A nice line. Consider it purloined and added to my collection.

Don't forget that causation operates both top-down and bottom-up in neural networks, Austin. My cells may need water and cause me to be thirsty against my will but they can't force me to walk to the tap. We'll need to have a vote on that.

It's rather a pity that evolution is being discussed in terms of such an archaic procedure of thought. Darwinism was unworkable even before the 19th century was finished because it wasn't yet known that living systems are non-linear INFORMATION networks. It was Mendel who did for Darwin, and Watson and Crick who finally sunk the boot in, but as always the reductionists stole the limelight in order to make an easy problem look hard.

THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE IS EVOLVING, and to examine a sub-system within it as if the rest of the universe is a static backdrop is a Darwinist myth made even more absurd by the neo-Darwinists and their fellow travellers. In the 21st century the biologists have finally woken up to the fact that evolution is a problem for the non-linear dynamic systems theorists, not for the nerds with test tubes.

Evolving systems become more informationally complex because they simply can't do otherwise and this is the most profound and bloody obvious truth in the entire universe.

Re: Questions we'll never solve

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:05 pm
by Obvious Leo
PoeticUniverse wrote:Heisenberg perhaps thwarted the German nuclear effort, for he gave a drawing to Bohr that scientist at Los Alamos noted could never work.
I hadn't come across this snippet of historical gossip. I just thought Adolf didn't get his bomb because Werner wasn't smart enough. Since he had previously successfully managed to pass off a simple statement of the bloody obvious as a message of profound truth he was maybe smarter than I thought he was.