Philosophy Now Forum

Philosophy Explorer wrote:...

What do you think?

PhilX

Are you a mammal? Do you get bored?

Arising_uk wrote:

Philosophy Explorer wrote:...

What do you think?

PhilX

Are you a mammal? Do you get bored?

Careful - he can't take difficult questions.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Skip wrote:Mammals is a fairly large category, encompassing a wide range of intelligence, life-style and complexity, including humans.
Of-bloody-course they get bored. Leave your poodle alone too long and he'll redesign for your leather jacket. Leave him alone with nothing to invent and he'll become psychotic - just as you would in solitary confinement.
Even goldfish get bored - that's why people put fake plants and rocks in their containers.

I'm not sure goldfish have a great capacity for boredom. In fact I image they have a great tolerance for it. But as the brain increases through the animal kingdom we have a difference in degree, not of kind.
Anyone who really thinks an animals can't get bored does not deserve to keep one. That includes farmers, not just pet owners.

I already agree with you that animals have equal feelings but with regards fish or even other animals, I believe that size isn't the necessary significant factor. First off, much of our emotions are derived in the older lower levels of the brain. And secondly, while having larger capactity like increased computer memory, can make an animal more varied to handle different environments, the logical functioning doesn't actually require much. Computers have always had equivalent powers from the beginning with respect to the logic but only lacked the technology to make the useful by increasing the capacity of memory. Note that most of the advantage of modern CPUs in computers are about replicating cores and diminishing the size of unit logic gates that can fit within it. They help to parallel process better, but within biology, each neuron acts as a distinct type of CPU and can operate as multiple different logical gates relative to their connections.

Thus, even ants 'feel' things like pain and comfort. I don't know about 'boredom' but this is a kind of discomfort where one's energy is lacking an outlet to express. As such, I can perceive an ant getting 'bored' if it is unable to do what it feels most energetically in need of doing but is being prevented in some way.

Scott Mayers wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Skip wrote:Mammals is a fairly large category, encompassing a wide range of intelligence, life-style and complexity, including humans.
Of-bloody-course they get bored. Leave your poodle alone too long and he'll redesign for your leather jacket. Leave him alone with nothing to invent and he'll become psychotic - just as you would in solitary confinement.
Even goldfish get bored - that's why people put fake plants and rocks in their containers.

I'm not sure goldfish have a great capacity for boredom. In fact I image they have a great tolerance for it. But as the brain increases through the animal kingdom we have a difference in degree, not of kind.
Anyone who really thinks an animals can't get bored does not deserve to keep one. That includes farmers, not just pet owners.

I already agree with you that animals have equal feelings but with regards fish or even other animals, I believe that size isn't the necessary significant factor. First off, much of our emotions are derived in the older lower levels of the brain. And secondly, while having larger capactity like increased computer memory, can make an animal more varied to handle different environments, the logical functioning doesn't actually require much. Computers have always had equivalent powers from the beginning with respect to the logic but only lacked the technology to make the useful by increasing the capacity of memory. Note that most of the advantage of modern CPUs in computers are about replicating cores and diminishing the size of unit logic gates that can fit within it. They help to parallel process better, but within biology, each neuron acts as a distinct type of CPU and can operate as multiple different logical gates relative to their connections.

Thus, even ants 'feel' things like pain and comfort. I don't know about 'boredom' but this is a kind of discomfort where one's energy is lacking an outlet to express. As such, I can perceive an ant getting 'bored' if it is unable to do what it feels most energetically in need of doing but is being prevented in some way.

No animal as "equal feeling". We might have the same kind of feeling, but it is definitely different in degree, and this degree of difference, though not wholly determined by, does correlate to brain size. But there are structural differences between mammals, reptiles and fish that would have additional consequences for the quality of consciousness. Further, the complexity of the body and the potential use to which it can be put will also be significant. being used to having something for your hands, and legs to do cannot apply to a fish

The Brain of a fish being limited in perception,is also limited in boredom. I think the computer hardware analogy is of not much use.

The literal brain size is NOT the factor. It is the relative brain size to the size of the animal (I believe by weight but can't recall immediately). Our "Nature of Things" with David Suzuki did a recent doc regarding birds compared to dogs compared to apes compared to man. It is amazing how well birds out-perform dogs by this measure. See A Murder of Crows

Okay. Let's ask another question. Do you think a cow sits around in a field, counting the hours, thinking how she'd like to be sitting in Paris restaurant, chowing down on a human in a twisted version of Singer's exemption?

There is no comparison between the tedium a human feels, to that of a lower conciousness. They are less than idiots. But go ahead. Give them the vote. But wait til I'm dead.

Dalek Prime wrote:Okay. Let's ask another question. Do you think a cow sits around in a field, counting the hours, thinking how she'd like to be sitting in Paris restaurant, chowing down on a human in a twisted version of Singer's exemption?

There is no comparison between the tedium a human feels, to that of a lower conciousness. They are less than idiots. But go ahead. Give them the vote. But wait til I'm dead.

It's about need. I've argued before that even humans lack intelligence unless they need it. All animals resist the energy that the brain uses if it doesn't need it.

Scott Mayers wrote:The literal brain size is NOT the factor. It is the relative brain size to the size of the animal (I believe by weight but can't recall immediately). Our "Nature of Things" with David Suzuki did a recent doc regarding birds compared to dogs compared to apes compared to man. It is amazing how well birds out-perform dogs by this measure.

Can you read? Or is it a problem with comprehension?
We might have the same kind of feeling, but it is definitely different in degree, and this degree of difference, though not wholly determined by, does correlate to brain size. But there are structural differences between mammals, reptiles and fish that would have additional consequences for the quality of consciousness. Further, the complexity of the body and the potential use to which it can be put will also be significant.
Crows are great problem solvers, but this does not mean they get bored.

Dalek Prime wrote:Okay. Let's ask another question. Do you think a cow sits around in a field, counting the hours, thinking how she'd like to be sitting in Paris restaurant, chowing down on a human in a twisted version of Singer's exemption?

There is no comparison between the tedium a human feels, to that of a lower conciousness. They are less than idiots. But go ahead. Give them the vote. But wait til I'm dead.

Considering a cow does not exhaust the possibility of "mammals". Obviously herbivores content themselves with being mostly static and doing lots of chewing.
Hunting mammals such as dogs are tuned to expect a more exciting existence. A dog can get bored more easily than a human, but can have that boredom resolved more easily.
My dog is satisfied to walk in the fields, sniff the hedgerows and run after a ball. I need a bit more. But a dig with nothing to small all day long is a sad puppy.

Scott Mayers wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:Okay. Let's ask another question. Do you think a cow sits around in a field, counting the hours, thinking how she'd like to be sitting in Paris restaurant, chowing down on a human in a twisted version of Singer's exemption?

There is no comparison between the tedium a human feels, to that of a lower conciousness. They are less than idiots. But go ahead. Give them the vote. But wait til I'm dead.

It's about need. I've argued before that even humans lack intelligence unless they need it. All animals resist the energy that the brain uses if it doesn't need it.

Intelligence does correlate with level of conciousness, but the two are separate things. And conciousness is ever present, except in altered states, including sleep.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Scott Mayers wrote:The literal brain size is NOT the factor. It is the relative brain size to the size of the animal (I believe by weight but can't recall immediately). Our "Nature of Things" with David Suzuki did a recent doc regarding birds compared to dogs compared to apes compared to man. It is amazing how well birds out-perform dogs by this measure.

Can you read? Or is it a problem with comprehension?
We might have the same kind of feeling, but it is definitely different in degree, and this degree of difference, though not wholly determined by, does correlate to brain size. But there are structural differences between mammals, reptiles and fish that would have additional consequences for the quality of consciousness. Further, the complexity of the body and the potential use to which it can be put will also be significant.
Crows are great problem solvers, but this does not mean they get bored.

Ask yourself what "bored" is first? I only understand this as a form of frustration anything has for being unable to determine what to do in some situation because they are over-energetic in mind and/or body to which they cannot relieve or entertain it as they have no environment allowing them to do so (at least perceptually). As such, if you were to take an ant, for instance, that is expecting to be doing something but quarantine it, it'll get 'antsy' (literally) trying to figure out what it can do with energy it is unable to relieve. Boredom is merely the frustration of being unable to interpret how to relieve an excess of energy. Normally, animals would sleep when their energy is relieved or entertained. But where it exists, even in ants, this should be interpreted internally as a discomfort causing confusion until the energy dies off.

Scott Mayers wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Scott Mayers wrote:The literal brain size is NOT the factor. It is the relative brain size to the size of the animal (I believe by weight but can't recall immediately). Our "Nature of Things" with David Suzuki did a recent doc regarding birds compared to dogs compared to apes compared to man. It is amazing how well birds out-perform dogs by this measure.

Can you read? Or is it a problem with comprehension?
We might have the same kind of feeling, but it is definitely different in degree, and this degree of difference, though not wholly determined by, does correlate to brain size. But there are structural differences between mammals, reptiles and fish that would have additional consequences for the quality of consciousness. Further, the complexity of the body and the potential use to which it can be put will also be significant.
Crows are great problem solvers, but this does not mean they get bored.

Ask yourself what "bored" is first? I only understand this as a form of frustration anything has for being unable to determine what to do in some situation because they are over-energetic in mind and/or body to which they cannot relieve or entertain it as they have no environment allowing them to do so (at least perceptually). As such, if you were to take an ant, for instance, that is expecting to be doing something but quarantine it, it'll get 'antsy' (literally) trying to figure out what it can do with energy it is unable to relieve. Boredom is merely the frustration of being unable to interpret how to relieve an excess of energy. Normally, animals would sleep when their energy is relieved or entertained. But where it exists, even in ants, this should be interpreted internally as a discomfort causing confusion until the energy dies off.

I think you are doing what you implied I was - that is oversimplifying.
Crows are fascinating problem solvers, but I doubt that they are ever bored.
One thing simply does not directly correlate to another, and one activity or lack of it does not immediately relate to boredom.

I, as a mammal, am personally getting bored of this conversation now as I don't see what it is intending to mean without actually being inside the mind of other non-human mammals, animals, or others. But my guess is that the intent of this was to attempt to distinguish some significance or supremacy of humans over other creatures which I find a little oddly biased anyways. What was the point of asking this question anyways?

Scott Mayers wrote:I, as a mammal, am personally getting bored of this conversation now as I don't see what it is intending to mean without actually being inside the mind of other non-human mammals, animals, or others. But my guess is that the intent of this was to attempt to distinguish some significance or supremacy of humans over other creatures which I find a little oddly biased anyways. What was the point of asking this question anyways?

....let me guess....boredom?