Philosophy Now Forum

Obvious Leo wrote:Are you blokes flirting again? Why not just tie the knot and be done with it?

Hobbes' Choice wrote:But for most atheists it is necessary to fundamentally question the nature of belief itself;

Yes. There's ample evidence for this. People who don't believe in god are far less likely to believe in ghosts, astrology, UFOs, conspiracy theories etc. There's an ancient truism which goes that the bigger the lie the easier it is to get people to swallow it so if you start them out as kids with a whopper like god it should be all downhill from there. You can get them to believe anything and thus have them eating out of your hand. If you don't believe me ask the pope.

There is an internal logic to the big lie though. Obviously if any of these crazy ideas flies against the big one, the believer will goto great lengths to find a rationale to reject such "heresy", even if it means denying the facts. This works in their favour when say, they reject Satanism or the idea that Mohammed is god's prophet, but not so good when it comes to a denial that the sun is the centre of the Solar System.

The paradox is though, if they are also open to crazy ideas - why do they score less for creativity?

Skip wrote:Naw, you just do like a necktie, only keep winding it around twelve more times.

Of course more creative people leave their religions. More creative people leave their home-towns, the career their fathers picked out for them, the high-school sweetheart and every other conservative, mind-numbing, self-denying straightjacket. that's what creative means: getting outside the assigned box.

True.
Presumably it works both ways, smarter people (tend to) go to University. That gives them a wider view of the world; more diversity, than staying home. So both smartness and more education can provide tools to unpack religion. Creativity could work in the same way offering more imagined possibilities. To become and atheist, one has to at least imagine an alternative reality from the one offered by religion - for some this might just be yet another religion, but combined with intelligence the conclusion that multiple religions can't all be right, offers the possibly that they might all be wrong.
It seems likely then that rejecting religion might be easier for creative people, but when atheism is decided upon creativity could well be opened up. With intelligence: you need some to escape religion, but when you do, you leave behind al that supposition and contradiction freeing your mind - as long as you can overcome the angst of trying to find your own purpose in a purposeless universe.

thedoc wrote:
I must be the 'odd man out' because I don't think that of you, however I will agree that organized religion is not the way to go, unless you are very clear in what you believe. I don't say 'out loud' everything that I honestly believe, because I know that it will only end in an argument, My pastor is the one exception, and my wife, but she just rolls her eyes when I speak up.

BTW, your intelligence is innate, and can only be enhanced, I really don't see how it can be diminished by your experiences as a young person. Everything you learn only adds to the store of knowledge you have, I don't believe that the human mind is as limited as once believed.

I'm really shocked that you say that.
Intelligence has to be trained and nurtured, or like a plant without food in never grows. It's not just about the innate propensity adding knowledge. There are key stages in human development, that if not offered the right stimulus will never grow.
Feral children, missing the language stage will remain mute till their death regardless of any effort to get them to communicate with words.
If you take a quick look into child psychology and development it will not take you long to see that I am right.
Your early experience, especially the first 7 years is of vital importance to your future development.
Scarred for life, is no joke.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:The paradox is though, if they are also open to crazy ideas - why do they score less for creativity?

This could be a relatively modern phenomenon in western culture, mainly because atheism is. Atheism gradually evolved in the west as a response to the mass education mandated by the demands of the industrial revolution. Prior to this time practically everybody would have been a theist, so creative thought would still have been possible as long as the creativity remained within this restrictive framework. The religious art of the Italian Renaissance would be a good example. In fact in most of medieval Europe to declare oneself an atheist wasn't even regarded as blasphemous and in most cases those few who did so were regarded with considerable compassion. Atheism was considered to be a particularly unfortunate manifestation of mental illness, which serves to illustrate the point that what goes around comes around. Within a generation from now theism will be regarded in much the same way. In my country theists are mostly still regarded as merely a quaint cultural curiosity but I feel sure that when my grandchildren grow up theists will be regarded as barking mad.

Dalek Prime wrote:"I am so smart! I am so smart! S-M-R-T... I mean S-M-A-R-T!"

Is Homer Simpson an atheist, or merely as 'S-M-R-T' as one?

Atheists are one-hit wonders that have swapped illusions of sacredness, and protecting that sacredness with the subversion myth that religionists are at the heart of the world's woes, and that, if only they could be converted or relegated to the dustbin, humanity could march on to it's future glory. Sound like a familiar story?

Yes, you Theist keep on using this old nutshell of a straw man. You dig it out at the slightest excuse, again, and again. So yes the story is very familiar.
THe only difference is, on this occasion is that you have expressed the straw man in a pseudo-intellectual way that sounds clever but does not really mean anything. I mean, really, did you really want to say this;"that have swapped illusions of sacredness, and protecting that sacredness with the subversion myth".

Are you implying that sacredness is an illusion (some progress here from you maybe) that atheists have swapped for some thing: you did not say what, btw. What sacredness are they protecting? And what is a subversion myth you say they are using to protect it?

Atheists are not promising glory or anything like it. They are witness to the destructive force of religion which peddles lies though, so much is obvious. The trick is not to just put yet another belief system in its place, like nationalism, patriotism, ad nauseam. These too are religions of a kind that are also destructive. And show the folly in dogma and unfounded reason.

Yes atheism is a cozy safe spot to remain. Knowing that God exists, does place me in the realm of the wack-job.

I don't mind people having an atheist position, but to let you know what really pisses me off, is when i am pigeon holed - 'oh you are Christian so you are this..' or even worse, that i am fundamentalist.

I just wish atheists would understand that theism cannot be a pigeon holing affair. With atheism its a given - there is no God.

Obvious Leo wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:The paradox is though, if they are also open to crazy ideas - why do they score less for creativity?

This could be a relatively modern phenomenon in western culture, mainly because atheism is. Atheism gradually evolved in the west as a response to the mass education mandated by the demands of the industrial revolution. Prior to this time practically everybody would have been a theist, so creative thought would still have been possible as long as the creativity remained within this restrictive framework. The religious art of the Italian Renaissance would be a good example. In fact in most of medieval Europe to declare oneself an atheist wasn't even regarded as blasphemous and in most cases those few who did so were regarded with considerable compassion. Atheism was considered to be a particularly unfortunate manifestation of mental illness, which serves to illustrate the point that what goes around comes around. Within a generation from now theism will be regarded in much the same way. In my country theists are mostly still regarded as merely a quaint cultural curiosity but I feel sure that when my grandchildren grow up theists will be regarded as barking mad.

Let's hope so. But, as I said in another post, the dangers inherent in religion are not restricted to it. In the same way such belief systems as racism,nationalism and patriotism are also highly destructive and dogmatically rob people of reason. When, or if, theism gets rejected the danger is that it would be "replaced' by something more destructive. Theists often say "what would I do without it'; "what would take its place?" - as if the empty space is anathema.
The oft expressed notion that "my country is the greatest on the earth" is expressed in all countries; often by people who don't even possess a passport. The idea that they cannot all be right, is familiar enough from a considered rejection of religion generally. It seems to me that these tendency is stimulated by good old fashioned tribalism, which even the most rational of persons can find himself getting sucking into the mire of, such as when watching sports. I know the feeling myself. This is easily subverted into recruitment into the forces and makes conscription easier. Tribalism, which religion is susceptible to, is as dangerous. On a macro level it is only religion's susceptibility to tribalism and expansionism that makes it so dangerous. One observes that if little religions would just stick to their own corner and waste the lives of it acolytes in isolation, they would be less problematic.

attofishpi wrote:Yes atheism is a cozy safe spot to remain. Knowing that God exists, does place me in the realm of the wack-job.

I don't mind people having an atheist position, but to let you know what really pisses me off, is when i am pigeon holed - 'oh you are Christian so you are this..' or even worse, that i am fundamentalist.

I just wish atheists would understand that theism cannot be a pigeon holing affair. With atheism its a given - there is no God.

If atheism is so cozy, then you can always chose it.

And about pigeon holing.- if you have a coherent idea of god, then you can always share it. But I do not see anything we have said as not potentially applying to you. And you are free to discuss aspects of the thread to your hearts content, and can distance yourself from any particular part of the discussion as you see fit.
I think you are being disingenuous, atheists are fully aware that there are different gods out there and different religions. We are talking about probabilities and tendencies and possible reasons for and the consequences of atheism.

No one has, (yet), called you a "wack-job". In fact you might be somewhat immune from the negative effects of religion that we are discussing if you are not part of a religious community.
SO chill, bro.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

attofishpi wrote:Yes atheism is a cozy safe spot to remain. Knowing that God exists, does place me in the realm of the wack-job.

I don't mind people having an atheist position, but to let you know what really pisses me off, is when i am pigeon holed - 'oh you are Christian so you are this..' or even worse, that i am fundamentalist.

I just wish atheists would understand that theism cannot be a pigeon holing affair. With atheism its a given - there is no God.

If atheism is so cozy, then you can always chose it.

Not when you know God exists.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:And about pigeon holing.- if you have a coherent idea of god, then you can always share it. But I do not see anything we have said as not potentially applying to you. And you are free to discuss aspects of the thread to your hearts content, and can distance yourself from any particular part of the discussion as you see fit.
I think you are being disingenuous, atheists are fully aware that there are different gods out there and different religions. We are talking about probabilities and tendencies and possible reasons for and the consequences of atheism.

No one has, (yet), called you a "wack-job". In fact you might be somewhat immune from the negative effects of religion that we are discussing if you are not part of a religious community.
SO chill, bro.

To claim to know God renders one nothing more than a wack-job to an atheist. Its really rather simple.

I will repeat since i was ignored:-
I know God exists from years of experience. I hate having to label myself Christian (since it was indicated to me that Jesus was the Christ).

I've written a sci-fi (cyberpunk) book, and once i fix my laptop will continue to write the follow-up. Ive exhibited paintings for the Adelaide fringe and am working on the next installment.

Since coming to know God exists, although the tests were extreme and drove me to suicide (i failed - maybe i'm too dumb), it has actually inspired me.

Most of my friends are atheist - none of them are creative, and i will have to admit their intelligence appears rather lacking in comparison to mine. My wit far exceeds any of them, luckily they have no interest in debating on internetz.

I have no doubt that compare the average American fundamentalist to a hard boiled egg, the hard boiled egg will have the higher IQ.

attofishpi wrote: To claim to know God renders one nothing more than a wack-job to an atheist. Its really rather simple.

I will repeat since i was ignored:-
I know God exists from years of experience. I hate having to label myself Christian (since it was indicated to me that Jesus was the Christ).

I've written a sci-fi (cyberpunk) book, and once i fix my laptop will continue to write the follow-up. Ive exhibited paintings for the Adelaide fringe and am working on the next installment.

Since coming to know God exists, although the tests were extreme and drove me to suicide (i failed - maybe i'm too dumb), it has actually inspired me.

Most of my friends are atheist - none of them are creative, and i will have to admit their intelligence appears rather lacking in comparison to mine. My wit far exceeds any of them, luckily they have no interest in debating on internetz.

I have no doubt that compare the average American fundamentalist to a hard boiled egg, the hard boiled egg will have the higher IQ.

Stay with your delusion. It suits you.
But whilst you are about it - you might want to read what I said more carefully.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Stay with your delusion. It suits you.
But whilst you are about it - you might want to read what I said more carefully.

LIKE THIS:- Hobbes wrote >> "I think you are being disingenuous, atheists are fully aware that there are different gods out there and different religions."

You couldn't sound more stupid if you tried. Sure there could be thousands of different religions, but as i keep stating to unintelligent atheists such as you, there is one God, period.

Man can base his\her interaction with God over the millennia and make up new religions has he\she sees fit, it doesn't change the state of God.

attofishpi wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Stay with your delusion. It suits you.
But whilst you are about it - you might want to read what I said more carefully.

LIKE THIS:- Hobbes wrote >> "I think you are being disingenuous, atheists are fully aware that there are different gods out there and different religions."

You couldn't sound more stupid if you tried. Sure there could be thousands of different religions, but as i keep stating to unintelligent atheists such as you, there is one God, period.

NO I meant THIS: " In fact you might be somewhat immune from the negative effects of religion that we are discussing if you are not part of a religious community."

But since you want to be nailed to a fucking cross, here are my nails, and wood.....

I don't care how many times you say it you fucking nut-job. The evidence speaks volumes that no one else agrees with you. Why should i take you word for it?
You are just one deluded twat screaming into the wind, and most of what you say it that other people's idea of god is naive and stupid. Get a fucking grip on yourself.
You do not "KNOW" god, you believe. Belief of one is nothing to another. Live with it.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

attofishpi wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Stay with your delusion. It suits you.
But whilst you are about it - you might want to read what I said more carefully.

LIKE THIS:- Hobbes wrote >> "I think you are being disingenuous, atheists are fully aware that there are different gods out there and different religions."

You couldn't sound more stupid if you tried. Sure there could be thousands of different religions, but as i keep stating to unintelligent atheists such as you, there is one God, period.

NO I meant THIS: " In fact you might be somewhat immune from the negative effects of religion that we are discussing if you are not part of a religious community."

But since you want to be nailed to a fucking cross, here are my nails, and wood.....

I don't care how many times you say it you fucking nut-job. The evidence speaks volumes that no one else agrees with you. Why should i take you word for it?
You are just one deluded twat screaming into the wind, and most of what you say it that other people's idea of god is naive and stupid. Get a fucking grip on yourself.
You do not "KNOW" god, you believe. Belief of one is nothing to another. Live with it.

Hahaha!

That thing that i don't know exists, recently called me a SAGE.

attofishpi wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
You couldn't sound more stupid if you tried. Sure there could be thousands of different religions, but as i keep stating to unintelligent atheists such as you, there is one God, period.

NO I meant THIS: " In fact you might be somewhat immune from the negative effects of religion that we are discussing if you are not part of a religious community."

But since you want to be nailed to a fucking cross, here are my nails, and wood.....

I don't care how many times you say it you fucking nut-job. The evidence speaks volumes that no one else agrees with you. Why should i take you word for it?
You are just one deluded twat screaming into the wind, and most of what you say it that other people's idea of god is naive and stupid. Get a fucking grip on yourself.
You do not "KNOW" god, you believe. Belief of one is nothing to another. Live with it.

Hahaha!

That thing that i don't know exists, recently called me a SAGE.

That thing inside your head you think is "GOD" called you a "sage".
Ah Diddums, aren't you the lucky one.

Well you are some kind of herb that is for sure.

There hasn't been a valid comparison has there?

The problem is, most people start out with a given set of genetic predispositions and capacities. But they're helpless infants, at the mercy of their environment, which is dominated by adults with firmly-established belief systems, into which they are determined to form, knead, mold and otherwise reconfigure their offspring. Most of us haven't been given the choice of religions, or freedom from religion, or any freedom of thought, until we're strong enough to fight off the authorities who tell us what to believe. For most children, that's not before the late teens - for the majority, it's never. Starting with that kind of handicap, I would expect only the toughest, most independent, most determined minds to shake off their early indoctrination completely. So what we're comparing is the exceptional to the average - it's no surprise if they score higher.

The only way to tell whether religion aids or hinders the development of intelligence and creativity, is to conduct a rigorous study. Start with a large pool of newborns, randomly selected from all socio-ethnic backgrounds. We'd have to raise at least one group, but preferably several, in strictly religious families and communities, a strictly atheist group, and a control group wholly free from any suggestion of religion or the supernatural - each group isolated not only from the others, but also from a society full of competing folklores.

In 20 years, we'd have a pretty good idea. (and maybe a macroscope)