Page 2 of 3

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:30 pm
by attofishpi
attofishpi wrote:
thedoc wrote:Am I correct in reading this that you attribute both the good things to God, and the Evil, (that many people attribute to Satan) and many things in between?
Yes, but not all. I attribute lots of good things to God and lots of evil things to God...from EXPERIENCE of God.
I've never heard of anyone attributing anything to satan. Please provide a recent example.
thedoc wrote:Thus needing only one entity, God, to account for all that is and happens.
No.
There is a lot of good that people do, and a lot of evil that people do, don't start praising or blaming God.
So doc - i take it you are satisfied with my statements. However, i'm still interested in your definition of evil, and what exactly this satan chap is up to?

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:00 pm
by thedoc
attofishpi wrote:
So doc - i take it you are satisfied with my statements. However, i'm still interested in your definition of evil, and what exactly this satan chap is up to?
Your statements are acceptable.

Evil is whatever mankind decides is unacceptable behavior, and that changes over time.

I think you have misread my posts, I don't claim the existence of Satan, I was just speculating that evil is sometimes attributed to Satan rather than God. So in this light when God's action are such that humans consider the actions evil, they will attribute those actions to Satan. I cannot verify the existence of Satan, so I would have no information on what Satan might be up to, however the "Screwtape Letters" were an interesting read.

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:00 pm
by Greatest I am
attofishpi wrote:I have had on and off battles with God\'God' for years and not once has satan crossed my path. If you want a satan, look no farther than God as it is the Alpha and Omega. To dwell on such terms as satan is to suggest a simple, borderline caveman mentality.
I agree.
But stats say that 70 odd % of Christians believe in such a fictional character and do not mind using Satan against their own children in spite of the harm statistics are showing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olhCazkejPg

Regards
DL

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:06 pm
by Greatest I am
attofishpi wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:They (christians) need a bible in order to know wrong from right and they doubt that anyone can have a moral compass without God."
Taking your quote from your thread, apologies if this offends. I consider myself a Christian, simply because i know Christ that died on a crucifix was the Christ.

I disagree wholeheartedly with your presumption, an ill conceived conception that i would somehow think that there is no moral compass without God.
Yet you seem to follow an immoral God who has forced you to have to accept an immoral tenet.

I am willing to argue against that notion.

Human sacrifice is evil and your God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

You trying to profit from that evil is evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:39 am
by attofishpi
Greatest I am wrote:For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?
No i don't.
Until i became fully aware of God's existence, Christ made little sense to me also. When i have crossed a certain line in relation to the tree of knowledge coupled to a major sin of mine from many moons ago, God puts me in hell. In fact, 'it' even states 'you crossed the line.' 'you are in hell.' Some years back i would be under such a condition sometimes for 3 months or more.
I would have preferred to have been nailed to a crucifix than endure many of those testing times years ago. It is not inconceivable to believe that Christ is in fact the human incarnation of God, so to suggest God is somehow a **** for what he did to Christ is not justified.

Now when things are good, if i get angered by life and what i was put through and start to curse Christ with expletives, again 'you have crossed the line' will be stated, and a little taste of hell will be forced upon me. The word 'confess' once flashed across my retina. So i do confess sometimes when i have crossed said line, i apologise to Christ, especially in consideration of his suffering. And the love returns! And if i live my life to my best, a taste of heaven returns.

So to attempt to clarify why Christ suffered, died and rose. Take my example, if i had no knowledge of a Christ being in relation to God. I wouldn't love it in any way, considering all the suffering i endured at 'its' hands. I wouldn't have had ANY hope during the hell process. There simply would be no light at the end of the tunnel, and right now, i'm teetering at heavens 'door'.

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:45 am
by thedoc
attofishpi wrote:, and right now, i'm teetering at heavens 'door'.
That phrase could have several different meanings, I would be curious to know exactly what you meant by it?

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:39 pm
by attofishpi
thedoc wrote:
attofishpi wrote:, and right now, i'm teetering at heavens 'door'.
That phrase could have several different meanings, I would be curious to know exactly what you meant by it?
1. No death required.
2. 'teetering' - still loaded with doubt, still wobbling a little on the path.

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:14 pm
by artisticsolution
Greatest I am wrote: Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
Well, technically speaking, the story doesn't quite go like that. Christians believe that Jesus IS God. It's what is meant by the holy trinity. Technically in Christianity the God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost , are but ONE God. So, God did not punish Jesus per se, he punished himself.

Anyway, all this changing of traditional beliefs into another belief is just to parody the first belief, as there is absolutely no reason to believe in the first place. The fact that people believe the first story just shows they have faith. To deny the first story but then use it as the belief system basis for your own warped story, merely changing the character's roles, is comical.

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:22 pm
by Greatest I am
attofishpi wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?
No i don't.
Until i became fully aware of God's existence, Christ made little sense to me also. When i have crossed a certain line in relation to the tree of knowledge coupled to a major sin of mine from many moons ago, God puts me in hell. In fact, 'it' even states 'you crossed the line.' 'you are in hell.' Some years back i would be under such a condition sometimes for 3 months or more.
I would have preferred to have been nailed to a crucifix than endure many of those testing times years ago. It is not inconceivable to believe that Christ is in fact the human incarnation of God, so to suggest God is somehow a **** for what he did to Christ is not justified.

Now when things are good, if i get angered by life and what i was put through and start to curse Christ with expletives, again 'you have crossed the line' will be stated, and a little taste of hell will be forced upon me. The word 'confess' once flashed across my retina. So i do confess sometimes when i have crossed said line, i apologise to Christ, especially in consideration of his suffering. And the love returns! And if i live my life to my best, a taste of heaven returns.

So to attempt to clarify why Christ suffered, died and rose. Take my example, if i had no knowledge of a Christ being in relation to God. I wouldn't love it in any way, considering all the suffering i endured at 'its' hands. I wouldn't have had ANY hope during the hell process. There simply would be no light at the end of the tunnel, and right now, i'm teetering at heavens 'door'.
A God cannot die and would have no need to do so to change his immoral condemnation of mankind.

"Until i became fully aware of God's existence,"

What color was God?

Regards
DL

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:25 pm
by Greatest I am
artisticsolution wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
Well, technically speaking, the story doesn't quite go like that. Christians believe that Jesus IS God. It's what is meant by the holy trinity. Technically in Christianity the God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost , are but ONE God. So, God did not punish Jesus per se, he punished himself.

Anyway, all this changing of traditional beliefs into another belief is just to parody the first belief, as there is absolutely no reason to believe in the first place. The fact that people believe the first story just shows they have faith. To deny the first story but then use it as the belief system basis for your own warped story, merely changing the character's roles, is comical.
Well, technically speaking, the story does go like that.

I agree that the story will only be believed by fools.

It is ok to internalize though if one knows it well. I do and that is why I can incorporate it into the Gnostic Christian theology as we alweays have done.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers after God. God here I define as the best laws and rules to live life with.

We believe that those laws and rules, as Jesus said, are found in our minds/hearts. I use the following to try to illustrate this notion. A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do what I promote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:31 pm
by thedoc
attofishpi wrote:
thedoc wrote:
attofishpi wrote:, and right now, i'm teetering at heavens 'door'.
That phrase could have several different meanings, I would be curious to know exactly what you meant by it?
1. No death required.
2. 'teetering' - still loaded with doubt, still wobbling a little on the path.
Are your doubts just about the question in the title of this thread, or do those doubts extend further to the question of God's existence?

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:39 pm
by thedoc
artisticsolution wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
Well, technically speaking, the story doesn't quite go like that. Christians believe that Jesus IS God. It's what is meant by the holy trinity. Technically in Christianity the God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost , are but ONE God. So, God did not punish Jesus per se, he punished himself.

Anyway, all this changing of traditional beliefs into another belief is just to parody the first belief, as there is absolutely no reason to believe in the first place. The fact that people believe the first story just shows they have faith. To deny the first story but then use it as the belief system basis for your own warped story, merely changing the character's roles, is comical.
I would suggest that the Crucifixion story is a drama acted out by God to explain his act of forgiveness and grace for those who might not understand a more subtle message. As I see it, whether any of it actually happened is less important than the message that was in the drama.

There is a story in Buddhism that when confronted by a finger pointing at the Moon, you are to look at the Moon, not the finger. Those who are getting all in a dither about whether the Crucifixion is fact or fiction, are looking at the finger, not the Moon.

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:34 pm
by artisticsolution
thedoc wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
Well, technically speaking, the story doesn't quite go like that. Christians believe that Jesus IS God. It's what is meant by the holy trinity. Technically in Christianity the God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost , are but ONE God. So, God did not punish Jesus per se, he punished himself.

Anyway, all this changing of traditional beliefs into another belief is just to parody the first belief, as there is absolutely no reason to believe in the first place. The fact that people believe the first story just shows they have faith. To deny the first story but then use it as the belief system basis for your own warped story, merely changing the character's roles, is comical.
I would suggest that the Crucifixion story is a drama acted out by God to explain his act of forgiveness and grace for those who might not understand a more subtle message. As I see it, whether any of it actually happened is less important than the message that was in the drama.

There is a story in Buddhism that when confronted by a finger pointing at the Moon, you are to look at the Moon, not the finger. Those who are getting all in a dither about whether the Crucifixion is fact or fiction, are looking at the finger, not the Moon.
I am talking about the holy trinity...look it up. What are you talking about?

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:40 pm
by Greatest I am
^^

Do you mean this Trinity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ

Do you not ever wonder why Christianity did not accept the Trinity till Constantine forced it down the Churches throat 300 years after Jesus died?

Perhaps because it is such a stupid concept.

Regards
DL

Re: Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:48 pm
by artisticsolution
Greatest I am wrote:^^

Do you mean this Trinity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ

Do you not ever wonder why Christianity did not accept the Trinity till Constantine forced it down the Churches throat 300 years after Jesus died?

Perhaps because it is such a stupid concept.

Regards
DL
You are missing my point...if the holy trinity is bullshit because it was forced down someone's throat 300 years after Jesus ...then your ideas of God are even more ludicrous.

Why attribute anything to a God, if it is a stupid concept?